4 ms·

Swiss is actually deeply split: German-speaking think they are the best, they have to rule, their Calvinist vision is the best etc, French-speaking populations

by kkfx 4y ago

Swiss is actually deeply split: German-speaking think they are the best, they have to rule, their Calvinist vision is the best etc, French-speaking populations they are the best, their social and democratic model is far superior to the raw and sore German-speaking Calvinist one, Italian-speaking populations think they are the best, a bridge between French and German groups, French-speaking ones are just hippie with too much power and richness, German-speaking are unable to enjoy life etc, Ladin/Romance populations think they are the sole real Swiss and the others oppress them just because they are numerically superior etc BUT they know being unite is needed and they choose carefully to distribute power around groups to make hard one being able to rule others or some unite against others and they choose a language no-one use (Latin) as a good symbol of "we are unite, but we are all different and together"... IMVHO this model is not accepted by most countries is because anyone like or dream power and in this model there is no absolute power by anyone so any decision need to be discussed and lobby can't do that much. Oh, it's not perfect, we see recent schizophrenic referendums rows, sure Swiss is not poor anymore, the poorest mercenaries of big European powers of the past, so they can count on being a safe harbor for anyone else etc. BUT try to compare Swiss to Lebanon (the ex-Middle-est Swiss almost anybody forgot)...

dotancohen 4y ago
As you described Switzerland I immediately thought of Lebanon. Lebanon has the added complication of extraordinary interest of its two neighbors in Lebanon's internal affairs. In your opinion, could that be the difference between the successful Swiss implementation and the largely failing Lebanese implementation?
- IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
  Very easy: One is founded on libertarian ideals. The other one is founded on state-mandated pluricultural sectarianism. In switzerland, plurality is represented via multiple presidents and they can represent any canton. In lebanon, plurality is state-mandated: must have a president that is of X religion. A prime minister of Y religion. This is "representative". The swiss has very strong traditions on union out of necessity (to face external threat). Lebanon has no tradition of unity, it is a state unified effectively out of fear (and a bastard child of french palestinian mandate). The swiss culture of unity is long: they worked 800+ years to establish their union and it was carefully balanced over many iterations of conflict, even internal ones. Lebanese culture of unity is very weak. They basically were friendly with all neighbors seeking to influence internal policy. For example, all public works depend on a sponsor (saudi, qatar etc), to fund the project. Money buys influence. Imagine if FL depended on Venezuelan treasure to build roads. Very weak internal unity. Lebanon was only the switzerland of the middle east because it was the most free of countries in the region. But the regional bar is very low. As it turns out, that only gets you so far. And time ran out for lebanon... a while back: When? I think Black september sealed the fate of lebanon. They had no internal unity to reject the palestinian refugees like Jordan did (via authoritarian methods). That permanently and irrevocably set them on the path they are today. In summary, calling lebanon the switzerland of the middle east is a romantic idea for the lebanese that lived thru a somewhat prosperous but short time period of 15 or so years. Nothing suggested it could be long lasting. It was always an empty vessel. A student that cheats on every exam, will eventually get caught. The rest as they say, is history
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    > They basically were friendly with all neighbors seeking to influence > internal policy. For example, all public works depend on a > sponsor (saudi, qatar etc), to fund the project. I had no idea! Was this because they were unable to collect taxes from the populace? Where could I read more. > When? I think Black september sealed the fate of lebanon. They had no internal > unity to reject the palestinian refugees like Jordan did (via authoritarian methods). Was there no way to handle the palestinian refugees without authoritarian methods? Honest naive question, most people who voice an opinion on the subject seem to have extremely one-sided and narrow viewpoints, your comment demonstrates otherwise. I would appreciate a candid opinion from someone who sees the larger picture.
    - IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
      >>>>I had no idea! Was this because they were unable to collect taxes from the populace? Where could I read more I don't know where this practice comes from or how long has it been around. I do know however the public works bidding is a cartel, and there is so much corruption at all levels, from deputies to private enterprise, that it would make Brazil's petrobras corruption scandal (lava jato) look minor in comparison. >>>>Was there no way to handle the palestinian refugees without authoritarian methods? Im not sure. Displaced populations had to go live somewhere. The palestinian issue is rare because they were forced to leave, which is atypical for "total war" conflict. In total war conflicts, the result is winner takes land with resources, and loser state is (a) integrated into larger empire, with either assimilation, or massive civilian casualties, or (b) else loser state is left with minor pop and land. With Palestine, there was no leftover "loser" state, there were no resources changing hands, and no civilian wipeout. I dont know of any democratic country succesfully managing refugees at that scale. Total war is not rare historically, what is rare is democratic states existing at the time total war was still prevalent. The question is interesting. Id like to give it more thought. That being said, history tends to put everyone in their place. Jordan may still implode due to royal malfeasance, but lebanon already did.
      - dotancohen 4y ago
- kkfx 4y ago
  It's hard for me to have tangible opinion on something as complicated as the Middle-east but surely part of the causes are exogenous, at what level and mechanism I can't tell. Surely another relevant part was and still is food: Swiss needs import, but for being well, in mere self-sufficiency they can survive, Lebanon can't, it import I think nearly all foods they needs and that's a big issue. Surely energy production is another: Swiss have much hydro and was able to develop a certain level of nuclear, Lebanon have nothing of them. Again a big tie that allow foreign countries to interfere much. I do not prize Swiss at a whole, I'm talking just in terms of defense and Democracy...
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    Very interesting, thank you. I did not realize that Lebanon must import so much food. They have a very fertile country, possibly the most fertile percentagewise in the Middle East, I wonder why they must import so much food.
    - kkfx 4y ago
      I don't know the details, but for instance, from a quick search https://www.weeportal-lb.org/news/lebanon-imports-85-its-food-usd-20-billion-annually https://www.weeportal-lb.org/news/lebanon-imports-85-its-foo... or https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/lebanon/2022/03/11/lebanon-expects-food-security-problems-within-a-month-or-two/ https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/lebanon/2022/03/11/leba... https://asiatimes.com/2022/01/russia-ukraine-war-could-cause-hunger-in-mideast/ https://asiatimes.com/2022/01/russia-ukraine-war-could-cause... I suppose they have big water issues due to constant droughts and bad irrigation systems, perhaps hyper-dense population and constant war-alike status also impact much but... And do not undervalue the energy part, pumps for instance can run on p.v. but most tractors, farm equipment run on diesel, witch is not produced locally and cost money. Food supply chain/transformation industry need energy, sometimes in important quantities to keep foods cold or to lyophilize them etc. Energy does not make foods alone, but it's an important piece of the game.
      - dotancohen 4y ago
occamrazor 4y ago
Nitpick: Calvin was mostly active in Geneva, in the French speaking part. The most important exponent of the Reformation in Zurich was Zwingli. And the (German speaking) cantons in Central Switzerland that “founded” Switzerland are to this day mostly Catholic.

by kkfx 4y ago

dotancohen 4y ago

As you described Switzerland I immediately thought of Lebanon. Lebanon has the added complication of extraordinary interest of its two neighbors in Lebanon's internal affairs. In your opinion, could that be the difference between the successful Swiss implementation and the largely failing Lebanese implementation?

IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
Very easy: One is founded on libertarian ideals. The other one is founded on state-mandated pluricultural sectarianism. In switzerland, plurality is represented via multiple presidents and they can represent any canton. In lebanon, plurality is state-mandated: must have a president that is of X religion. A prime minister of Y religion. This is "representative". The swiss has very strong traditions on union out of necessity (to face external threat). Lebanon has no tradition of unity, it is a state unified effectively out of fear (and a bastard child of french palestinian mandate). The swiss culture of unity is long: they worked 800+ years to establish their union and it was carefully balanced over many iterations of conflict, even internal ones. Lebanese culture of unity is very weak. They basically were friendly with all neighbors seeking to influence internal policy. For example, all public works depend on a sponsor (saudi, qatar etc), to fund the project. Money buys influence. Imagine if FL depended on Venezuelan treasure to build roads. Very weak internal unity. Lebanon was only the switzerland of the middle east because it was the most free of countries in the region. But the regional bar is very low. As it turns out, that only gets you so far. And time ran out for lebanon... a while back: When? I think Black september sealed the fate of lebanon. They had no internal unity to reject the palestinian refugees like Jordan did (via authoritarian methods). That permanently and irrevocably set them on the path they are today. In summary, calling lebanon the switzerland of the middle east is a romantic idea for the lebanese that lived thru a somewhat prosperous but short time period of 15 or so years. Nothing suggested it could be long lasting. It was always an empty vessel. A student that cheats on every exam, will eventually get caught. The rest as they say, is history
- dotancohen 4y ago
  > They basically were friendly with all neighbors seeking to influence > internal policy. For example, all public works depend on a > sponsor (saudi, qatar etc), to fund the project. I had no idea! Was this because they were unable to collect taxes from the populace? Where could I read more. > When? I think Black september sealed the fate of lebanon. They had no internal > unity to reject the palestinian refugees like Jordan did (via authoritarian methods). Was there no way to handle the palestinian refugees without authoritarian methods? Honest naive question, most people who voice an opinion on the subject seem to have extremely one-sided and narrow viewpoints, your comment demonstrates otherwise. I would appreciate a candid opinion from someone who sees the larger picture.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
    >>>>I had no idea! Was this because they were unable to collect taxes from the populace? Where could I read more I don't know where this practice comes from or how long has it been around. I do know however the public works bidding is a cartel, and there is so much corruption at all levels, from deputies to private enterprise, that it would make Brazil's petrobras corruption scandal (lava jato) look minor in comparison. >>>>Was there no way to handle the palestinian refugees without authoritarian methods? Im not sure. Displaced populations had to go live somewhere. The palestinian issue is rare because they were forced to leave, which is atypical for "total war" conflict. In total war conflicts, the result is winner takes land with resources, and loser state is (a) integrated into larger empire, with either assimilation, or massive civilian casualties, or (b) else loser state is left with minor pop and land. With Palestine, there was no leftover "loser" state, there were no resources changing hands, and no civilian wipeout. I dont know of any democratic country succesfully managing refugees at that scale. Total war is not rare historically, what is rare is democratic states existing at the time total war was still prevalent. The question is interesting. Id like to give it more thought. That being said, history tends to put everyone in their place. Jordan may still implode due to royal malfeasance, but lebanon already did.
    - dotancohen 4y ago
kkfx 4y ago
It's hard for me to have tangible opinion on something as complicated as the Middle-east but surely part of the causes are exogenous, at what level and mechanism I can't tell. Surely another relevant part was and still is food: Swiss needs import, but for being well, in mere self-sufficiency they can survive, Lebanon can't, it import I think nearly all foods they needs and that's a big issue. Surely energy production is another: Swiss have much hydro and was able to develop a certain level of nuclear, Lebanon have nothing of them. Again a big tie that allow foreign countries to interfere much. I do not prize Swiss at a whole, I'm talking just in terms of defense and Democracy...
- dotancohen 4y ago
  Very interesting, thank you. I did not realize that Lebanon must import so much food. They have a very fertile country, possibly the most fertile percentagewise in the Middle East, I wonder why they must import so much food.
  - kkfx 4y ago
    I don't know the details, but for instance, from a quick search https://www.weeportal-lb.org/news/lebanon-imports-85-its-food-usd-20-billion-annually https://www.weeportal-lb.org/news/lebanon-imports-85-its-foo... or https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/lebanon/2022/03/11/lebanon-expects-food-security-problems-within-a-month-or-two/ https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/lebanon/2022/03/11/leba... https://asiatimes.com/2022/01/russia-ukraine-war-could-cause-hunger-in-mideast/ https://asiatimes.com/2022/01/russia-ukraine-war-could-cause... I suppose they have big water issues due to constant droughts and bad irrigation systems, perhaps hyper-dense population and constant war-alike status also impact much but... And do not undervalue the energy part, pumps for instance can run on p.v. but most tractors, farm equipment run on diesel, witch is not produced locally and cost money. Food supply chain/transformation industry need energy, sometimes in important quantities to keep foods cold or to lyophilize them etc. Energy does not make foods alone, but it's an important piece of the game.
    - dotancohen 4y ago

occamrazor 4y ago

Nitpick: Calvin was mostly active in Geneva, in the French speaking part. The most important exponent of the Reformation in Zurich was Zwingli. And the (German speaking) cantons in Central Switzerland that “founded” Switzerland are to this day mostly Catholic.