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I know this way of thinking is horrible, but let me play devil's advocate for a while: What if the CCP puts Uyghurs into prison simply because the majority of

I know this way of thinking is horrible, but let me play devil's advocate for a while: What if the CCP puts Uyghurs into prison simply because the majority of Chinese citizens want Uyghurs in prison? 1. That would explain the behavior in the article. 2. That would explain why studies report that people in China feel like a democracy. Their government works in the way that benefits the majority of its people, so for some definitions of it, that would be a "democracy". 3. That would explain why some presumably Chinese citizens vandalize posters criticizing Jinping or the CCP. Try showing up with a "Trump is an idiot" poster at a MAGA rally ... and you'll see the same effect.

glogla 4y ago
Yes. China is like this because Chinese are like this, and they want it to be like this (for all possible values of "like this"). Same with Russia (who is invading Ukraine because Russians want it), Saudi Arabia (who is beheading gay people because Saudis want it) and other places. I have even heard following argument: it takes surprisingly little people to overthrow a dictator, so counterintuitively dictators have much higher support than democracies. In democracy, you need support of majority of voters (or whatever, depending on the voting system) while for a dictator to stay up (assuming no outside help) 90 % of people have to stand behind the dictator. A dictator is not someone who took power, but someone granted power by the masses as long as they do what the masses want. In any case, the real problem here is that the Western nations continue to let people "like this" (for all possible values of "like this" opposed to Western values) in and let them terrorize others, because money is more important than _not_ having people terrorized. Stop letting the pro-CCP Chinese study in the West and the problem solves itself. They are not in any way entitled to come here and hurt people.
- rajup 4y ago
  > it takes surprisingly little people to overthrow a dictator, so counterintuitively dictators have much higher support than democracies. That’s a very unique perspective I never thought of it that way. I wonder though if some or most of a dictator’s power come from having a tight control over means of suppression, from controlled media to the military. The latter 2 would seem to require a much smaller percentage of support than 90%
  - glogla 4y ago
    That is likely true. I think people can also be misled and don't always think rationally - there has been a lot of "glorious empires" where the people were more invested in their country being "glorious empire" than actual prosperity and development of their country. I'm honestly not 100 % convinced of all this. But I don't have better answer for "why are there so many people who support their dictator and let them do all those things".
agapon 4y ago
I am not sure what your point is... Your example is the same as treatment of black people in the U.S. at the time when they did not have equal rights. Your example is the same as treatment of Jews in the Nazi Germany. Things like that happened and happen. Sometimes the majority of population wants to do horrible things to a minority. That's true. Still not sure why you brought that up.
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  This is the ongoing treatment of black people in the US.
dirtyid 4y ago
It's a lot simpler than that. PRC's XJ security architecture is publically about counter terrorism and deradicalization through forced reeducation (with mass interment) and poverty alleviation. While forced sterilzation for women with 3+ kids is XJ catching up to family planning policies with rest of PRC. Years of consistent Uyghur terrorist attacks stopped in exchange for repressing minority consisting 0.02% of population. Majory Han is AOK with this. Plurality of UN position endorses XJ as counter terrorism narrative (with overwhemling support from Muslim countries), minority as human right abuses, and fringe as genocide. So when PRC students say: >"we were crucified in a courtroom for crimes that we did not commit" They don't mean for crimes they personally did not commit, but alleged "genocide" that the global political UN community majority states PRC did not commit. And in fact the opposite position is true, to them PRC has found a relatively "humane" method of eliminating radical terrorism versus US bombing the shit out of the ME. As for being vocal / belligerant about it on campus, that's what what happens when complex diasphora drama between PRC and other anti-CCP minorities happens abroad. Especially in for profit "education" institutes (really prestige diploma mills). They're paying 50K USD + board and enjoying their customarhy campus freedom of expression perks. Foreign student enjoying western campus culture doesn't mean they also get brainwashed endorse western foreign policy instead of their domestic ones. Especially when the gap in perspective is so antithetical.
- logicchains 4y ago
  >They don't mean for crimes they personally did not commit, but alleged "genocide" that the global political UN community majority states PRC did not commit. The "majority" of UN are poor countries on China's payroll; facts are not a matter of majority opinion. >And in fact the opposite position is true, to them PRC has found a relatively "humane" method of eliminating radical terrorism versus US bombing the shit out of the ME. So completely annihilating an ethnicity through sterilization and banning their cultural practices is more humane than indiscriminate bombing? In fifty years' time there'll still be an Iraq and Iraqi people, but if the current practices continue then in fifty years there'll barely be any Uighurs in China. Fortunately the Chinese people are beginning to see that what Xi did to poor Uighurs in Xinjiang, he can just as easily do for rich Hanzu in Shanghai. A taste of their own medicine, so to speak.

glogla 4y ago

Yes. China is like this because Chinese are like this, and they want it to be like this (for all possible values of "like this"). Same with Russia (who is invading Ukraine because Russians want it), Saudi Arabia (who is beheading gay people because Saudis want it) and other places. I have even heard following argument: it takes surprisingly little people to overthrow a dictator, so counterintuitively dictators have much higher support than democracies. In democracy, you need support of majority of voters (or whatever, depending on the voting system) while for a dictator to stay up (assuming no outside help) 90 % of people have to stand behind the dictator. A dictator is not someone who took power, but someone granted power by the masses as long as they do what the masses want. In any case, the real problem here is that the Western nations continue to let people "like this" (for all possible values of "like this" opposed to Western values) in and let them terrorize others, because money is more important than _not_ having people terrorized. Stop letting the pro-CCP Chinese study in the West and the problem solves itself. They are not in any way entitled to come here and hurt people.

rajup 4y ago
> it takes surprisingly little people to overthrow a dictator, so counterintuitively dictators have much higher support than democracies. That’s a very unique perspective I never thought of it that way. I wonder though if some or most of a dictator’s power come from having a tight control over means of suppression, from controlled media to the military. The latter 2 would seem to require a much smaller percentage of support than 90%
- glogla 4y ago
  That is likely true. I think people can also be misled and don't always think rationally - there has been a lot of "glorious empires" where the people were more invested in their country being "glorious empire" than actual prosperity and development of their country. I'm honestly not 100 % convinced of all this. But I don't have better answer for "why are there so many people who support their dictator and let them do all those things".

agapon 4y ago

I am not sure what your point is... Your example is the same as treatment of black people in the U.S. at the time when they did not have equal rights. Your example is the same as treatment of Jews in the Nazi Germany. Things like that happened and happen. Sometimes the majority of population wants to do horrible things to a minority. That's true. Still not sure why you brought that up.

whimsicalism 4y ago
This is the ongoing treatment of black people in the US.

dirtyid 4y ago

It's a lot simpler than that. PRC's XJ security architecture is publically about counter terrorism and deradicalization through forced reeducation (with mass interment) and poverty alleviation. While forced sterilzation for women with 3+ kids is XJ catching up to family planning policies with rest of PRC. Years of consistent Uyghur terrorist attacks stopped in exchange for repressing minority consisting 0.02% of population. Majory Han is AOK with this. Plurality of UN position endorses XJ as counter terrorism narrative (with overwhemling support from Muslim countries), minority as human right abuses, and fringe as genocide. So when PRC students say: >"we were crucified in a courtroom for crimes that we did not commit" They don't mean for crimes they personally did not commit, but alleged "genocide" that the global political UN community majority states PRC did not commit. And in fact the opposite position is true, to them PRC has found a relatively "humane" method of eliminating radical terrorism versus US bombing the shit out of the ME. As for being vocal / belligerant about it on campus, that's what what happens when complex diasphora drama between PRC and other anti-CCP minorities happens abroad. Especially in for profit "education" institutes (really prestige diploma mills). They're paying 50K USD + board and enjoying their customarhy campus freedom of expression perks. Foreign student enjoying western campus culture doesn't mean they also get brainwashed endorse western foreign policy instead of their domestic ones. Especially when the gap in perspective is so antithetical.

logicchains 4y ago
>They don't mean for crimes they personally did not commit, but alleged "genocide" that the global political UN community majority states PRC did not commit. The "majority" of UN are poor countries on China's payroll; facts are not a matter of majority opinion. >And in fact the opposite position is true, to them PRC has found a relatively "humane" method of eliminating radical terrorism versus US bombing the shit out of the ME. So completely annihilating an ethnicity through sterilization and banning their cultural practices is more humane than indiscriminate bombing? In fifty years' time there'll still be an Iraq and Iraqi people, but if the current practices continue then in fifty years there'll barely be any Uighurs in China. Fortunately the Chinese people are beginning to see that what Xi did to poor Uighurs in Xinjiang, he can just as easily do for rich Hanzu in Shanghai. A taste of their own medicine, so to speak.