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You'd need some kind of shared database that all parties can trust. It'd have to be regularly audited but also kept as up to date as possible. It should have

You'd need some kind of shared database that all parties can trust. It'd have to be regularly audited but also kept as up to date as possible. It should have very precise access controls. Also, it should be as fast as possible, and there should be a record of everything that's ever changed. If you want a full copy of it, you should be able to request it at any time. It sounds like a lot of work to build that though. Maybe we can find some nerds to make it for "equity" on the chance that such a database has value? They could use it for other stuff too if they want.

Nursie 4y ago
> You'd need some kind of shared database that all parties can trust Government run then, the institution that is involved with contract oversight here, an easily identifiable authority in this situation. If you don't trust that here, then there's no point in bothering with sales contracts in the first place. > It'd have to be regularly audited but also kept as up to date as possible. It should have very precise access controls. Also, it should be as fast as possible, and there should be a record of everything that's ever changed. If you want a full copy of it, you should be able to request it at any time. So like a database with auditing switched on? The type that is already run all over the world for all sorts of things? > If you want a full copy of it, you should be able to request it at any time. Like a database that offloads snapshots every so often? And maybe has an API in front of it allowing querying of public data? Like are run ... everywhere? For all sorts of things already? > It sounds like a lot of work to build that though. I mean, it sounds exactly like a ton of running systems with fairly standard options, so no, it seems like it would be fairly trivial. And of course we all know that there are no development costs for blockchain solutions. Nobody needs to build a webpage, or develop smart contracts, or security audit them, or build in permission systems so there can be authority oversight, or provide APIs, no, they all just appear fully formed and fully secure out of the ether... no boring 'work' to build that! "Blockchain gives you that for free" must be one of the biggest fallacies out there. > Maybe we can find some nerds to make it for "equity" on the chance that such a database has value? Doesn't sound to me like we need to give these 'nerds' a continuing stake in a public service. Any old software company can build that sort of thing out for you for a one-off fee. Adding profit motives for unrelated third parties seems to me like a pretty poor choice. But what do I know, perhaps we should introduce more avenues for speculation around the housing market, that sounds healthy.
- yata69420 4y ago
  I suspect we have different governments. I don't see mine doing anything remotely like that. I come from a place that still has toll booths so that toll booth workers can keep their jobs. I have to take off my shoes before I can get on an airplane so that my government feels safer. I personally compute my government taxes, which only occasionally (if ever) get verified. That's how we fund the country. If I routinely saw the government creating new technology that improved the lives of citizens, I suspect I would share your opinion. It would be interesting to map "places interested in crypto" against "places that have low trust in their government" and what kind of overlap there is. The way I see technology in the US: First, the nerds get excited and start forming groups about it. Then, the business people figure out how to monetize it. Eventually, the government gets sold an overpriced enterprise solution. Then we do it all over again.
  - Nursie 4y ago
    > I suspect we have different governments. I don't see mine doing anything remotely like that. Then why are they going to bring in a blockchain solution? It's got the exact same problem there as any other software solution would. That's my point here, making it a blockchain (or a database!) doesn't magically solve the root cause, it's just an implementation detail. If it even is a problem (a lot of other posters don't seem to think so), the problem isn't that the data storage medium isn't decentralised, or that there's too much trust in the system, it's the absolute ton of bureaucracy and paper-shuffling that takes several weeks. Choosing blockchain + API vs DB + API here doesn't address that. The gains come from modernising the system, not the storage tech.
    - yata69420 4y ago
      > Now instead of directly transacting at the very low-tech county property registrar I think you've overlooked this in the grandparent, because you've probably never had the experience of going to a low-tech county property registrar's office to pull a record. > it's the absolute ton of bureaucracy and paper-shuffling that takes several weeks Of course, but so much of that bureaucracy is about being risk-adverse. I really do have to take my shoes off at the airport because somebody tried to wear explosive shoes once, about 20 years ago. So, yes it's the "ton of bureaucracy and paper-shuffling that takes several weeks", but that doesn't really address what's going on. Our governments will easily adopt new technologies when they're simple. If minting officially signed records is as cheap and easy on-chain as it looks like it's going to be, it would be silly not to use the technology, even if you think government should have been the entity to build and maintain it. > Choosing blockchain + API vs DB + API here doesn't address that. This whole class of technology precisely addresses that. It removes the "who has to build and maintain this DB and keep access to it forever" step, which is pretty significant for important records. Literal teenagers can buy and sell pictures of apes easier than I can prove to a mortgage company that I own my residence. Something isn't right there, and I don't think it's the children and their fancy record keeping that's wrong. When the intern at a county clerk's office somewhere in the middle of the country says "hey boss, let's mint NFTs for these records, it costs about a penny each and I can set up the computer to do it as a summer project", that's about the threshold we need for widespread local government adoption.
lottin 4y ago
Look up land registration. These databases have been around for centuries.

Nursie 4y ago

> You'd need some kind of shared database that all parties can trust Government run then, the institution that is involved with contract oversight here, an easily identifiable authority in this situation. If you don't trust that here, then there's no point in bothering with sales contracts in the first place. > It'd have to be regularly audited but also kept as up to date as possible. It should have very precise access controls. Also, it should be as fast as possible, and there should be a record of everything that's ever changed. If you want a full copy of it, you should be able to request it at any time. So like a database with auditing switched on? The type that is already run all over the world for all sorts of things? > If you want a full copy of it, you should be able to request it at any time. Like a database that offloads snapshots every so often? And maybe has an API in front of it allowing querying of public data? Like are run ... everywhere? For all sorts of things already? > It sounds like a lot of work to build that though. I mean, it sounds exactly like a ton of running systems with fairly standard options, so no, it seems like it would be fairly trivial. And of course we all know that there are no development costs for blockchain solutions. Nobody needs to build a webpage, or develop smart contracts, or security audit them, or build in permission systems so there can be authority oversight, or provide APIs, no, they all just appear fully formed and fully secure out of the ether... no boring 'work' to build that! "Blockchain gives you that for free" must be one of the biggest fallacies out there. > Maybe we can find some nerds to make it for "equity" on the chance that such a database has value? Doesn't sound to me like we need to give these 'nerds' a continuing stake in a public service. Any old software company can build that sort of thing out for you for a one-off fee. Adding profit motives for unrelated third parties seems to me like a pretty poor choice. But what do I know, perhaps we should introduce more avenues for speculation around the housing market, that sounds healthy.

yata69420 4y ago
I suspect we have different governments. I don't see mine doing anything remotely like that. I come from a place that still has toll booths so that toll booth workers can keep their jobs. I have to take off my shoes before I can get on an airplane so that my government feels safer. I personally compute my government taxes, which only occasionally (if ever) get verified. That's how we fund the country. If I routinely saw the government creating new technology that improved the lives of citizens, I suspect I would share your opinion. It would be interesting to map "places interested in crypto" against "places that have low trust in their government" and what kind of overlap there is. The way I see technology in the US: First, the nerds get excited and start forming groups about it. Then, the business people figure out how to monetize it. Eventually, the government gets sold an overpriced enterprise solution. Then we do it all over again.
- Nursie 4y ago
  > I suspect we have different governments. I don't see mine doing anything remotely like that. Then why are they going to bring in a blockchain solution? It's got the exact same problem there as any other software solution would. That's my point here, making it a blockchain (or a database!) doesn't magically solve the root cause, it's just an implementation detail. If it even is a problem (a lot of other posters don't seem to think so), the problem isn't that the data storage medium isn't decentralised, or that there's too much trust in the system, it's the absolute ton of bureaucracy and paper-shuffling that takes several weeks. Choosing blockchain + API vs DB + API here doesn't address that. The gains come from modernising the system, not the storage tech.
  - yata69420 4y ago
    > Now instead of directly transacting at the very low-tech county property registrar I think you've overlooked this in the grandparent, because you've probably never had the experience of going to a low-tech county property registrar's office to pull a record. > it's the absolute ton of bureaucracy and paper-shuffling that takes several weeks Of course, but so much of that bureaucracy is about being risk-adverse. I really do have to take my shoes off at the airport because somebody tried to wear explosive shoes once, about 20 years ago. So, yes it's the "ton of bureaucracy and paper-shuffling that takes several weeks", but that doesn't really address what's going on. Our governments will easily adopt new technologies when they're simple. If minting officially signed records is as cheap and easy on-chain as it looks like it's going to be, it would be silly not to use the technology, even if you think government should have been the entity to build and maintain it. > Choosing blockchain + API vs DB + API here doesn't address that. This whole class of technology precisely addresses that. It removes the "who has to build and maintain this DB and keep access to it forever" step, which is pretty significant for important records. Literal teenagers can buy and sell pictures of apes easier than I can prove to a mortgage company that I own my residence. Something isn't right there, and I don't think it's the children and their fancy record keeping that's wrong. When the intern at a county clerk's office somewhere in the middle of the country says "hey boss, let's mint NFTs for these records, it costs about a penny each and I can set up the computer to do it as a summer project", that's about the threshold we need for widespread local government adoption.

lottin 4y ago

Look up land registration. These databases have been around for centuries.