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> it argues that the entire technology field is worthless and cannot be used for any practical purpose Which I concur with. Cryptocoins are worthless, the ide

by Ologn 4y ago

> it argues that the entire technology field is worthless and cannot be used for any practical purpose Which I concur with. Cryptocoins are worthless, the idea Bitcoin has a market cap of $5-6 hundred billion is absurd, and maybe the increasing fed funds rate etc. will pop this speculative bubble more than it already has (Bitcoin had the even more absurd market cap of $1 trillion toward the end of last year). Why is a Bitcoin worth anything? I know why my M1 Mac is worth something, I know why a box of raisins is worth something, I know why a bar of gold is worth something. I see no worth in a Bitcoin. I ask why it has any worth and the bag holders cast around looking for an equivalent, and only seem to find that dollars have been unmoored from value for half a century and the response is it's like the dollar (of course the dollar is implicitly, not explicitly like before 1971, backed by tens of thousands of tons of bullion gold among other things, but that's another tangent...)

Gatsky 4y ago
Well your Mac is worth ‘something’ because of what people are willing to pay for it. It would be worthless to certain people, just as you find bitcoin worthless. What’s the difference?
- strofcon 4y ago
  No, the Mac is worth something in and of itself. It is a tool of productivity, entertainment, education, creation, etc. And, failing all of that, it's valuable for its parts. A bitcoin is an ID number pointing to pretend money. It has zero intrinsic value.
  - birracerveza 4y ago
    I'm sure that if someone were to gift you one Bitcoin you would not refuse it on the basis that it's just an ID number pointing to pretend money with zero intrinsic value, would you?
    - strofcon 4y ago
      Sure - today, as the situation stands, I'd sell it in a heartbeat, because there is still a vast supply of greater fools. That doesn't mean it has intrinsic value, nor that it would be an ethical / moral choice. Just means that I have loose enough morals to be happy to take an idiot's money. When suddenly it loses its popularity and/or supply of greater fools, it'll fall apart, and I'll have taken some poor sap's actual money, even if it was delayed / distanced / distributed by some thousands of layers.
      - birracerveza 4y ago
        And what is the intrinsic value of actual money again?
  - Ologn 4y ago
    Correct, I can exchange a Mac for something else, or I can use it. Bitcoins are obviously exchanged but have not use.
    - strofcon 4y ago
      This. In the event that the world falls apart, the Mac is at least usable as a weighted object, if all else fails. Bitcoins become purely thought in such a situation, and even in far less catastrophic ones.
  - everfree 4y ago
    Productivity, entertainment, education, and creation are all subjective, just like the value of an entry in a ledger. I could say "I don't use Macs because I find I can't be productive with them." That's a subjective statement. Or I could say "I don't find it entertaining to sit in front of a Mac," or "I don't learn anything when I use a Mac," "I can't create anything valuable using a Mac." None of the properties you listed are intrinsic properties of the Mac, they're all a function of the Mac's utility to certain people in certain situations. Perhaps I'm Amish. Or perhaps I don't have an internet connection. Or I am old and blind and don't have a friend to teach me to use a screen reader. The Mac would be valueless to me. So, the Mac's value is derived solely from its utility to a certain group of people. It lets that group of people perform tasks that they couldn't perform (or would perform less efficiently) without it. That's the same way Bitcoin's value is derived. > pretend money All money is pretend. > It has zero intrinsic value. All money has zero intrinsic value. Extrinsic value is still value.
    - Frisiavones 4y ago
    - strofcon 4y ago
      Value is subjective in many cases, yes, but there is still intrinsic value in the device itself, if we have to boil it down. You missed that bit - the intrinsic part is literally the metals of which the device is made. Even failing that, it's useful as a weighted object. You can get down to the nuts and bolts of a thing with intrinsic value, such that even in the vent that society collapses and there's no coordinated economy to speak of, there is still SOMETHING for which the thing/service can be used. Cryptocurrencies literally stop existing in such an event, and become entirely worthless in even less catastrophic situations. Money is an agreed upon tool for exchanging items/services of value - but it also a store of value, because it retains at least a semblance of stability. Cryptocurrencies are... well, not currencies, for starters, but they're also simply a proxy for "real" money (ie: fiat). Where cryptocurrencies entirely fall apart is when the realization hits that they all fall into the greater fool category - once you run out of new marks, the scheme collapses, and all the money - note actual currency - ends up in the hands of a few early adopters and a couple extra lucky folks who timed it right. Negative sum games are not a good thing to prop up.

by Ologn 4y ago

Gatsky 4y ago

Well your Mac is worth ‘something’ because of what people are willing to pay for it. It would be worthless to certain people, just as you find bitcoin worthless. What’s the difference?

strofcon 4y ago
No, the Mac is worth something in and of itself. It is a tool of productivity, entertainment, education, creation, etc. And, failing all of that, it's valuable for its parts. A bitcoin is an ID number pointing to pretend money. It has zero intrinsic value.
- birracerveza 4y ago
  I'm sure that if someone were to gift you one Bitcoin you would not refuse it on the basis that it's just an ID number pointing to pretend money with zero intrinsic value, would you?
  - strofcon 4y ago
    Sure - today, as the situation stands, I'd sell it in a heartbeat, because there is still a vast supply of greater fools. That doesn't mean it has intrinsic value, nor that it would be an ethical / moral choice. Just means that I have loose enough morals to be happy to take an idiot's money. When suddenly it loses its popularity and/or supply of greater fools, it'll fall apart, and I'll have taken some poor sap's actual money, even if it was delayed / distanced / distributed by some thousands of layers.
    - birracerveza 4y ago
      And what is the intrinsic value of actual money again?
- Ologn 4y ago
  Correct, I can exchange a Mac for something else, or I can use it. Bitcoins are obviously exchanged but have not use.
  - strofcon 4y ago
    This. In the event that the world falls apart, the Mac is at least usable as a weighted object, if all else fails. Bitcoins become purely thought in such a situation, and even in far less catastrophic ones.
- everfree 4y ago
  Productivity, entertainment, education, and creation are all subjective, just like the value of an entry in a ledger. I could say "I don't use Macs because I find I can't be productive with them." That's a subjective statement. Or I could say "I don't find it entertaining to sit in front of a Mac," or "I don't learn anything when I use a Mac," "I can't create anything valuable using a Mac." None of the properties you listed are intrinsic properties of the Mac, they're all a function of the Mac's utility to certain people in certain situations. Perhaps I'm Amish. Or perhaps I don't have an internet connection. Or I am old and blind and don't have a friend to teach me to use a screen reader. The Mac would be valueless to me. So, the Mac's value is derived solely from its utility to a certain group of people. It lets that group of people perform tasks that they couldn't perform (or would perform less efficiently) without it. That's the same way Bitcoin's value is derived. > pretend money All money is pretend. > It has zero intrinsic value. All money has zero intrinsic value. Extrinsic value is still value.
  - Frisiavones 4y ago
  - strofcon 4y ago
    Value is subjective in many cases, yes, but there is still intrinsic value in the device itself, if we have to boil it down. You missed that bit - the intrinsic part is literally the metals of which the device is made. Even failing that, it's useful as a weighted object. You can get down to the nuts and bolts of a thing with intrinsic value, such that even in the vent that society collapses and there's no coordinated economy to speak of, there is still SOMETHING for which the thing/service can be used. Cryptocurrencies literally stop existing in such an event, and become entirely worthless in even less catastrophic situations. Money is an agreed upon tool for exchanging items/services of value - but it also a store of value, because it retains at least a semblance of stability. Cryptocurrencies are... well, not currencies, for starters, but they're also simply a proxy for "real" money (ie: fiat). Where cryptocurrencies entirely fall apart is when the realization hits that they all fall into the greater fool category - once you run out of new marks, the scheme collapses, and all the money - note actual currency - ends up in the hands of a few early adopters and a couple extra lucky folks who timed it right. Negative sum games are not a good thing to prop up.