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We arrest criminals, throw them.in a torture chamber for years and then are surprised that they aren't rehabilitated. If harsher prison sentences "deter" peopl

We arrest criminals, throw them.in a torture chamber for years and then are surprised that they aren't rehabilitated. If harsher prison sentences "deter" people from crime, why does the US not have a lower crime rate than Europe or Japan? Clearly other factors are at play, including, I think, the high degree of alienation in our society. I think it's important that we think abour abolishing orisons and looking at the brutality ans arbitrariness of the system.

AussieWog93 4y ago
>I think it's important that we think abour abolishing orisons and looking at the brutality ans arbitrariness of the system. OK, but what do you with, say, pedophiles that kidnap children and rape them at knifepoint? Fines? "Rehabilitation"?
- bamboozled 4y ago
  Of course you’ve used “that guy” for your argument… The most extreme example of someone who might not be rehabilitated. Think, young people who sell drugs or steal property. Not every case is the same and nor is the punishment.
  - _gabe_ 4y ago
    > Not every case is the same and nor is the punishment. This is how the American justice system already works for the most part. I have several acquaintances from high school and college that got "arrested" for drug possession. But all that meant was they paid a fine, and at worst spent a night in jail. Jail, not prison. Edit: And I'll just add a bit of anecdata suggesting prison can rehabilitate people. My cousin went to prison for 2 years for being a drug dealer, and since being released he has turned his life around. There's way to many variables involved in this stuff to cast huge generalizations and then make a decision based on that huge generalization.
    - kelnos 4y ago
      > I have several acquaintances from high school and college that got "arrested" for drug possession. But all that meant was they paid a fine, and at worst spent a night in jail. I was actually just watching a Last Week Tonight segment about this (well, about kids getting arrested in general, not specifically for drug crimes). Even if the reason for arrest is incredibly dumb, and charges are never filed or are dropped, the kid will still have an arrest on their record (and juvenile records often fail to get sealed upon adulthood). They'll have to answer "yes" on any college or job application that asks "have you ever been arrested", which can put them at a significant disadvantage. And we're not at the point yet where there are laws in place prohibiting questions like that. Regardless, I believe this will show up on a background check as well. > And I'll just add a bit of anecdata suggesting prison can rehabilitate people. My cousin went to prison for 2 years for being a drug dealer, and since being released he has turned his life around. That's great, and I wish your cousin well, but how common is his experience? Seems like he's one of the fairly rare good outcomes. But still, consider that prison is a pretty shitty place to be. Could your cousin have still turned his life around, but without having to experience the awfulness that is the US prison system? (Assuming this is in the US; apologies if I've misunderstood.)
MetaWhirledPeas 4y ago
> I think it's important that we think abour abolishing orisons and looking at the brutality ans arbitrariness of the system. I'm all for doing something, but what do you use to replace the prison system? Just don't arrest people?
- stefantalpalaru 4y ago
- mecsred 4y ago
  I heard a few places in the USA basically tried that during the peak of COVID-19. Wonder how that worked out for them.
- krapp 4y ago
  >I'm all for doing something, but what do you use to replace the prison system? Just don't arrest people? In most cases, yes. Many crimes, like drug possession, speeding, jaywalking, etc. can be eliminated altogether, or made civil rather than criminal offenses. Much of the money and energy put into law enforcement, arrest and incarceration could be put to better use improving social services, access to mental health services, housing, education, healthcare, etc, acting as a better deterrent to crime than prisons do. Even in the rare cases where incarceration might be necessary, the process should focus on education and rehabilitation, and respect for human rights and dignity, rather than simple punishment. Yes, that means treating even the most vile among us like people rather than subhuman animals. It means spending taxpayer dollars making sure the scum of the earth have access to food, shelter and medical care, even education, rather than locking them in a cell for 23 hours a day to satisfy society's primate need for catharsis. And that's not even touching the can of worms that is the deeply entrenched systemic racism and white supremacy within the American judicial system and among the police. Many people think that system can't simply be reformed at this point, it has to be torn down entirely and rebuilt from the ground up, and maybe replaced with a system where police are actually respected members of the community with a responsibility to protect citizens, and that probably aren't even armed most of the time. I mean, hell, as many Americans as there are armed to the teeth, we can let the "well armed militia" take up a lot of the slack, and probably even reduce gun crime with a comprehensive licensing and training program (Second Amendment issues notwithstanding) and, I don't know, actual public policing and militia groups that aren't all Nazi cosplayers. I'll bet the parents of those kids who got shot in Uvalde, Texas would have been willing to go in and stop the shooter if they could have. And I'm saying that as someone who's strongly pro gun-control. We can do better than the outdated Wild West slavecatcher system we have now.

AussieWog93 4y ago

>I think it's important that we think abour abolishing orisons and looking at the brutality ans arbitrariness of the system. OK, but what do you with, say, pedophiles that kidnap children and rape them at knifepoint? Fines? "Rehabilitation"?

bamboozled 4y ago
Of course you’ve used “that guy” for your argument… The most extreme example of someone who might not be rehabilitated. Think, young people who sell drugs or steal property. Not every case is the same and nor is the punishment.
- _gabe_ 4y ago
  > Not every case is the same and nor is the punishment. This is how the American justice system already works for the most part. I have several acquaintances from high school and college that got "arrested" for drug possession. But all that meant was they paid a fine, and at worst spent a night in jail. Jail, not prison. Edit: And I'll just add a bit of anecdata suggesting prison can rehabilitate people. My cousin went to prison for 2 years for being a drug dealer, and since being released he has turned his life around. There's way to many variables involved in this stuff to cast huge generalizations and then make a decision based on that huge generalization.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    > I have several acquaintances from high school and college that got "arrested" for drug possession. But all that meant was they paid a fine, and at worst spent a night in jail. I was actually just watching a Last Week Tonight segment about this (well, about kids getting arrested in general, not specifically for drug crimes). Even if the reason for arrest is incredibly dumb, and charges are never filed or are dropped, the kid will still have an arrest on their record (and juvenile records often fail to get sealed upon adulthood). They'll have to answer "yes" on any college or job application that asks "have you ever been arrested", which can put them at a significant disadvantage. And we're not at the point yet where there are laws in place prohibiting questions like that. Regardless, I believe this will show up on a background check as well. > And I'll just add a bit of anecdata suggesting prison can rehabilitate people. My cousin went to prison for 2 years for being a drug dealer, and since being released he has turned his life around. That's great, and I wish your cousin well, but how common is his experience? Seems like he's one of the fairly rare good outcomes. But still, consider that prison is a pretty shitty place to be. Could your cousin have still turned his life around, but without having to experience the awfulness that is the US prison system? (Assuming this is in the US; apologies if I've misunderstood.)

MetaWhirledPeas 4y ago

> I think it's important that we think abour abolishing orisons and looking at the brutality ans arbitrariness of the system. I'm all for doing something, but what do you use to replace the prison system? Just don't arrest people?

stefantalpalaru 4y ago
mecsred 4y ago
I heard a few places in the USA basically tried that during the peak of COVID-19. Wonder how that worked out for them.
krapp 4y ago
>I'm all for doing something, but what do you use to replace the prison system? Just don't arrest people? In most cases, yes. Many crimes, like drug possession, speeding, jaywalking, etc. can be eliminated altogether, or made civil rather than criminal offenses. Much of the money and energy put into law enforcement, arrest and incarceration could be put to better use improving social services, access to mental health services, housing, education, healthcare, etc, acting as a better deterrent to crime than prisons do. Even in the rare cases where incarceration might be necessary, the process should focus on education and rehabilitation, and respect for human rights and dignity, rather than simple punishment. Yes, that means treating even the most vile among us like people rather than subhuman animals. It means spending taxpayer dollars making sure the scum of the earth have access to food, shelter and medical care, even education, rather than locking them in a cell for 23 hours a day to satisfy society's primate need for catharsis. And that's not even touching the can of worms that is the deeply entrenched systemic racism and white supremacy within the American judicial system and among the police. Many people think that system can't simply be reformed at this point, it has to be torn down entirely and rebuilt from the ground up, and maybe replaced with a system where police are actually respected members of the community with a responsibility to protect citizens, and that probably aren't even armed most of the time. I mean, hell, as many Americans as there are armed to the teeth, we can let the "well armed militia" take up a lot of the slack, and probably even reduce gun crime with a comprehensive licensing and training program (Second Amendment issues notwithstanding) and, I don't know, actual public policing and militia groups that aren't all Nazi cosplayers. I'll bet the parents of those kids who got shot in Uvalde, Texas would have been willing to go in and stop the shooter if they could have. And I'm saying that as someone who's strongly pro gun-control. We can do better than the outdated Wild West slavecatcher system we have now.