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I know many poor country citizens who have had their families lifted into middle class even by american standards because companies were able to pay them in bit

by toolz 4y ago

I know many poor country citizens who have had their families lifted into middle class even by american standards because companies were able to pay them in bitcoin whereas USD wasn't possible. You aren't alone, though. There are many in their first-world bubble that don't see the benefits of crypto because their fiat fulfills all their needs. The same way you've never gone hungry, that doesn't mean food scarcity doesn't exist.

dilyevsky 4y ago
If someone robs a bank and $100 falls out while they get away that you later find, that makes robbing banks noble by your logic?
- toolz 4y ago
  I'm struggling to understand your connection at all. There's a difference between legality and ethics. Something can be illegal and it would be immoral for someone to obey that law. Similarly something can be illegal and it wouldn't be immoral for someone to ignore that law.
  - dilyevsky 4y ago
    The point is just bc someone happened to benefit from it doesn’t make it good overall. Im sure some people must make money off various mlm schemes
    - toolz 4y ago
      and who exactly is harmed when two people engage in free trade with resources they own? In your example the bank robber does not own the money, it was stolen and the robber has no claim, only possession.
      - dilyevsky 4y ago
        Easy - in case of btc money is stolen from people who subsidize cheap electricity (ie taxpayers). Various altcoins - future holders of bag
        toolz 4y ago
        you're using electricity just to comment on this thread - presumably you're okay with that, so what makes your electricity usage justified and not bitcoin owners? Both forms of electricity have been paid for (presumably) with resources you own and traded in good faith. It's not illegal to use electricity to mine crypto in the vast majority of places. as for altcoins I really don't know what your point is
yunohn 4y ago
> pay them in bitcoin whereas USD wasn't possible Why would they want to pay them in USD and not the local currency? What was preventing them from official employment?
- toolz 4y ago
  Their local regulations, which is exactly the problem crypto aims to solve. Some see illegal activity - I see consenting individuals being enabled to engage in free trade. Personally I would question anyone that would believe people shouldn't be able to trade their resources freely with consenting individuals. Humans shouldn't be slaves to the authoritarians they may have been born under. The solution to stopping unethical activity should be to stop that unethical activity. It shouldn't be to limit and regulate all activity to simply make it less convenient to participate in unethical activity.
  - yunohn 4y ago
    > Their local regulations You’re claiming that these countries prevent people from being paid money for work? Crypto is a luxury even for people in such countries, it’s not a feasible alternative to local fiat. > The solution to stopping unethical activity should be to stop that unethical activity Thanks for clearing that up! I wasn’t aware that the solution was so simple.
    - toolz 4y ago
      > You’re claiming that these countries prevent people from being paid money for work? Yes, it's quite common even in the US you can't work without a visa. Other countries have much stricter rule depending on things like sanctions etc. > Crypto is a luxury even for people in such countries, it’s not a feasible alternative to local fiat. Except when it isn't - which is exactly the case I'm describing. > Thanks for clearing that up! I wasn’t aware that the solution was so simple. Really no need for snark. No one said it was simple. You know it would be much easier to presume guilt until proven innocence too, but that doesn't make it a better approach to creating a healthy society.
derriz 4y ago
Could you provide a bit of detail? Like giving some examples of companies that pay their employees in bitcoin? I'm somewhat sceptical as I know someone who works for a company in a role organising payment to employees in poorer and third-world countries. They've told me lots of interesting stories about navigating the bureaucracy, nepotism and avoiding extortion/corruption to ensure people were paid but never that bitcoin was involved.
- toolz 4y ago
  then your friend knows all to well how difficult it is to get fiat to these people. Not every company has the resources to navigate corruption and red tape in other countries when they can simply pay them in bitcoin and be ensured the worker won't be subjected to extortion/corruption stealing their paycheck. Sorry I can't provide more details, I don't really know if everything happening is totally legal? I assume it is for the US company, but I'm sure you can find more details if you look hard enough.
  - derriz 4y ago
    That’s not particularly convincing. If I can find the information by searching as you recommend, then the information is already out there so you wouldn’t be revealing secrets by providing the detail or a link to the relevant search results?
    - toolz 4y ago
      it doesn't seem easy to find details and I'm not particularly interested to keep digging, if you legitimately can't fathom that places exist where moving fiat across borders is practically impossible then I don't know what to tell you
      - derriz 4y ago
        I don’t get you? I’m not asking you to provide evidence that “places exist where moving fiat across borders is practically impossible“. I’m interested in the many poor people you know who have been lifted into middle class through being paid in BTC by American employers. It’s a fairly bold claim from what I know of the way multinational companies operate globally so I’m genuinely curious about it.
lmm 4y ago
>> oligarchs can safely drain some third world country’s economy > I know many poor country citizens who have had their families lifted into middle class even by american standards Sounds like you're describing the same thing as the person you replied to - a small number of people evading or breaking their country's laws so that they can enrich themselves.
- toolz 4y ago
  similar in action, but vastly different in the ethics and consequence - in the same way that stealing a loaf of bread from a wealthy person to save a starving child is considered by most to be ethical, ignoring overbearing laws to provide for your family I consider ethical. You're free to disagree, but that's vastly different than the rich evading paying back into a society that enabled them to being wealthy. Magnitude always matters.
  - lmm 4y ago
    > that's vastly different than the rich evading paying back into a society that enabled them to being wealthy. Given that you're talking about people earning a middle-class-US money, likely putting them in at least the top percentile or two, I think it's actually exactly the same thing. Even millionaires will tell you they're not rich and point to people who are richer than them to justify why they feel that way, but you shouldn't believe them.
    - toolz 4y ago
      well that's definitely your opinion, but when the choices are being poor by a poor countries standards or taking a job that allows you to pay for your entire immediate families lifestyle - the choice for me is obvious It's also obvious this choice is barely even in the same category as an oligarch that has to choose between being in the top 100 richest people on earth and the top 10,000 richest people on earth. There's effectively nothing different about a top 10k and top 100 richest persons lifestyle options, they can do practically anything they want so long as it can be bought.

by toolz 4y ago

dilyevsky 4y ago

If someone robs a bank and $100 falls out while they get away that you later find, that makes robbing banks noble by your logic?

toolz 4y ago
I'm struggling to understand your connection at all. There's a difference between legality and ethics. Something can be illegal and it would be immoral for someone to obey that law. Similarly something can be illegal and it wouldn't be immoral for someone to ignore that law.
- dilyevsky 4y ago
  The point is just bc someone happened to benefit from it doesn’t make it good overall. Im sure some people must make money off various mlm schemes
  - toolz 4y ago
    and who exactly is harmed when two people engage in free trade with resources they own? In your example the bank robber does not own the money, it was stolen and the robber has no claim, only possession.
    - dilyevsky 4y ago
      Easy - in case of btc money is stolen from people who subsidize cheap electricity (ie taxpayers). Various altcoins - future holders of bag
      - toolz 4y ago
        you're using electricity just to comment on this thread - presumably you're okay with that, so what makes your electricity usage justified and not bitcoin owners? Both forms of electricity have been paid for (presumably) with resources you own and traded in good faith. It's not illegal to use electricity to mine crypto in the vast majority of places. as for altcoins I really don't know what your point is

yunohn 4y ago

> pay them in bitcoin whereas USD wasn't possible Why would they want to pay them in USD and not the local currency? What was preventing them from official employment?

toolz 4y ago
Their local regulations, which is exactly the problem crypto aims to solve. Some see illegal activity - I see consenting individuals being enabled to engage in free trade. Personally I would question anyone that would believe people shouldn't be able to trade their resources freely with consenting individuals. Humans shouldn't be slaves to the authoritarians they may have been born under. The solution to stopping unethical activity should be to stop that unethical activity. It shouldn't be to limit and regulate all activity to simply make it less convenient to participate in unethical activity.
- yunohn 4y ago
  > Their local regulations You’re claiming that these countries prevent people from being paid money for work? Crypto is a luxury even for people in such countries, it’s not a feasible alternative to local fiat. > The solution to stopping unethical activity should be to stop that unethical activity Thanks for clearing that up! I wasn’t aware that the solution was so simple.
  - toolz 4y ago
    > You’re claiming that these countries prevent people from being paid money for work? Yes, it's quite common even in the US you can't work without a visa. Other countries have much stricter rule depending on things like sanctions etc. > Crypto is a luxury even for people in such countries, it’s not a feasible alternative to local fiat. Except when it isn't - which is exactly the case I'm describing. > Thanks for clearing that up! I wasn’t aware that the solution was so simple. Really no need for snark. No one said it was simple. You know it would be much easier to presume guilt until proven innocence too, but that doesn't make it a better approach to creating a healthy society.

derriz 4y ago

Could you provide a bit of detail? Like giving some examples of companies that pay their employees in bitcoin? I'm somewhat sceptical as I know someone who works for a company in a role organising payment to employees in poorer and third-world countries. They've told me lots of interesting stories about navigating the bureaucracy, nepotism and avoiding extortion/corruption to ensure people were paid but never that bitcoin was involved.

toolz 4y ago
then your friend knows all to well how difficult it is to get fiat to these people. Not every company has the resources to navigate corruption and red tape in other countries when they can simply pay them in bitcoin and be ensured the worker won't be subjected to extortion/corruption stealing their paycheck. Sorry I can't provide more details, I don't really know if everything happening is totally legal? I assume it is for the US company, but I'm sure you can find more details if you look hard enough.
- derriz 4y ago
  That’s not particularly convincing. If I can find the information by searching as you recommend, then the information is already out there so you wouldn’t be revealing secrets by providing the detail or a link to the relevant search results?
  - toolz 4y ago
    it doesn't seem easy to find details and I'm not particularly interested to keep digging, if you legitimately can't fathom that places exist where moving fiat across borders is practically impossible then I don't know what to tell you
    - derriz 4y ago
      I don’t get you? I’m not asking you to provide evidence that “places exist where moving fiat across borders is practically impossible“. I’m interested in the many poor people you know who have been lifted into middle class through being paid in BTC by American employers. It’s a fairly bold claim from what I know of the way multinational companies operate globally so I’m genuinely curious about it.

lmm 4y ago

>> oligarchs can safely drain some third world country’s economy > I know many poor country citizens who have had their families lifted into middle class even by american standards Sounds like you're describing the same thing as the person you replied to - a small number of people evading or breaking their country's laws so that they can enrich themselves.

toolz 4y ago
similar in action, but vastly different in the ethics and consequence - in the same way that stealing a loaf of bread from a wealthy person to save a starving child is considered by most to be ethical, ignoring overbearing laws to provide for your family I consider ethical. You're free to disagree, but that's vastly different than the rich evading paying back into a society that enabled them to being wealthy. Magnitude always matters.
- lmm 4y ago
  > that's vastly different than the rich evading paying back into a society that enabled them to being wealthy. Given that you're talking about people earning a middle-class-US money, likely putting them in at least the top percentile or two, I think it's actually exactly the same thing. Even millionaires will tell you they're not rich and point to people who are richer than them to justify why they feel that way, but you shouldn't believe them.
  - toolz 4y ago
    well that's definitely your opinion, but when the choices are being poor by a poor countries standards or taking a job that allows you to pay for your entire immediate families lifestyle - the choice for me is obvious It's also obvious this choice is barely even in the same category as an oligarch that has to choose between being in the top 100 richest people on earth and the top 10,000 richest people on earth. There's effectively nothing different about a top 10k and top 100 richest persons lifestyle options, they can do practically anything they want so long as it can be bought.