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Sounds like an extremely false dichotomy. There is also the solution that you set up your own company, or convince your manager your time is best spent on this.

Sounds like an extremely false dichotomy. There is also the solution that you set up your own company, or convince your manager your time is best spent on this. I’ve worked around too many startups ruled by developers. They’re being run into the ground because those developers think technical NFRs as defined by them are the be all and end all. They’re not. Those same developers will happily spend months fiddling with the system without making any actual improvements and call it “paying down technical debt”. Give me a PM (or good engineer) that understands the bigger picture every time.

s0l1dsnak3123 4y ago
> There is also the solution that you set up your own company, or convince your manager your time is best spent on this. This is the definition of a flippant comment. Why should society require we become the lord of our own domain or a political chameleon just so that we can advocate for decent standards? Should people who live on flood plains "just move" when the tide comes in? Ridiculous. Understanding the bigger picture includes understanding the developer's point of view. > I’ve worked around too many startups ruled by developers. They’re being run into the ground because those developers think technical NFRs as defined by them are the be all and end all. They’re not. Those same developers will happily spend months fiddling with the system without making any actual improvements and call it “paying down technical debt”. Sounds like those super-clever managers didn't understand what the hell was going on to me. Perhaps they should've held their nose and tried to learn about their product so they can understand and communicate that bigger picture they speak of instead of abdicating their adversarial role and leaving dev teams rudderless.
- blowski 4y ago
  What makes you think they didn’t understand the developers’ point of view? Maybe they understood it, but didn’t agree with it.
  - s0l1dsnak3123 4y ago
    > Give me a PM (or good engineer) that understands the bigger picture every time. I was referring to this sentence: you're now telling us that the ideal good engineer understands the developer's point of view but doesn't agree with it. It sounds like you just want to be surrounded by yes men to me. The perfect recipe for a failed startup.
    - blowski 4y ago
      Maybe, just maybe, the developers are sometimes wrong about where they should spend their time.
pdimitar 4y ago
Even if your parent comment presented false dichotomy, you responding with the other extreme isn't convincing. As a senior programmer I respect business priorities and I don't go fixing technical debt for months. That being said, we the people suck at moderation. See, the problem I faced was exactly the opposite of what you encountered: I've been too accommodating and allowed myself to be micro-managed to the point of a manager telling me how should I do my job; that's when it finally clicked with me on what a toxic workplace have I landed back then. So neither of both extremes is good. I agree business priorities have to be respected; absolutely. At the same time we shouldn't allow the businessmen to tell us we can't ever fix technical debt.
- s0l1dsnak3123 4y ago
  Exactly. Managers are there to facilitate people and communication, business leaders are there to facilitate capital and strategic vision, engineers actually make the thing and master the detail in the process. Good businesses learn to listen: not just to their customers, but also to their domain experts.

s0l1dsnak3123 4y ago

> There is also the solution that you set up your own company, or convince your manager your time is best spent on this. This is the definition of a flippant comment. Why should society require we become the lord of our own domain or a political chameleon just so that we can advocate for decent standards? Should people who live on flood plains "just move" when the tide comes in? Ridiculous. Understanding the bigger picture includes understanding the developer's point of view. > I’ve worked around too many startups ruled by developers. They’re being run into the ground because those developers think technical NFRs as defined by them are the be all and end all. They’re not. Those same developers will happily spend months fiddling with the system without making any actual improvements and call it “paying down technical debt”. Sounds like those super-clever managers didn't understand what the hell was going on to me. Perhaps they should've held their nose and tried to learn about their product so they can understand and communicate that bigger picture they speak of instead of abdicating their adversarial role and leaving dev teams rudderless.

blowski 4y ago
What makes you think they didn’t understand the developers’ point of view? Maybe they understood it, but didn’t agree with it.
- s0l1dsnak3123 4y ago
  > Give me a PM (or good engineer) that understands the bigger picture every time. I was referring to this sentence: you're now telling us that the ideal good engineer understands the developer's point of view but doesn't agree with it. It sounds like you just want to be surrounded by yes men to me. The perfect recipe for a failed startup.
  - blowski 4y ago
    Maybe, just maybe, the developers are sometimes wrong about where they should spend their time.

pdimitar 4y ago

Even if your parent comment presented false dichotomy, you responding with the other extreme isn't convincing. As a senior programmer I respect business priorities and I don't go fixing technical debt for months. That being said, we the people suck at moderation. See, the problem I faced was exactly the opposite of what you encountered: I've been too accommodating and allowed myself to be micro-managed to the point of a manager telling me how should I do my job; that's when it finally clicked with me on what a toxic workplace have I landed back then. So neither of both extremes is good. I agree business priorities have to be respected; absolutely. At the same time we shouldn't allow the businessmen to tell us we can't ever fix technical debt.

s0l1dsnak3123 4y ago
Exactly. Managers are there to facilitate people and communication, business leaders are there to facilitate capital and strategic vision, engineers actually make the thing and master the detail in the process. Good businesses learn to listen: not just to their customers, but also to their domain experts.