7 ms·

Woman programmer here: I automatically assumed they were looking for college aged men. "Brogrammer," is not a unisex term, no matter how they try to spin it.

rezrovs 15y ago
Another woman programmer here: I'm glad I'm not the only one who assumed this.
- ajross 15y ago
  (Not a woman programmer here) The sad thing is that despite the clear evidence ("real women programmers read it as a gendered term") we'll no doubt see a ton of posts on this thread arguing that it's clearly not a problem. That said, I'm reasonably sure that it's not intentionally exclusionary. The poster had an image in their head of a work environment and came up with "brogrammer" as a catchy way to describe it. That this picture didn't include women is a huge problem, obviously, but I suspect it's probably not willful sexism.
  - JackDanger 15y ago
    I agree that the poster may not have intended to exclude women, but when they imagined that work environment in their head I'll bet they weren't imagining it full of women writing code.
    - chc 15y ago
      In fairness, if you're starting a software company and you imagine a room full of women, you're either wholly ignorant of the demographics of the industry or you're planning to discriminate like crazy against men.
pingswept 15y ago
Interestingly, as an old male programmer, I also assumed that "brogrammer" does not include me. (Maybe it does, if I wear baggy pants or something.)
cjukjones 15y ago
Another woman programmer here: This is exactly what I assumed and I agree there is no way it can be considered a unisex term. I would assume the culture at the company is immature and not a place a woman programmer would want to work anyway, so I would avoid applying for any position at this company.
- tsellon 15y ago
  Fellow here, and that's how I read it as well--as a term to exclude (whether that be women, nerds, or the properly socialized). It was, however, a useful filter on my side--I work in speech technology and might have wasted time following up.
irahul 15y ago
> "Brogrammer," is not a unisex term, no matter how they try to spin it. No one sensible would try to spin it as unisex. I think it's simply an oversight on their part - more stronger than addressing a gathering "hey guys", but on the same lines.
- ebiester 15y ago
  But that's the point -- that kind of oversight happens because of male privilege. It's because it's easy to think of programmers as men, so much that you have an "oversight" about including women. That excludes women, and that's exactly what this kind of stuff needs to be called out. The problem isn't always one data point; but rather, there are a lot of these data points that are easy to dismiss one by one, but lead up to an avalanche when collectively viewed.
  - chc 15y ago
    I agree with your overall thrust, but just a point that bugs me sometimes: Your comment would be much stronger without the "male privilege" explanation. That kind of talk has the wrong effect on people who aren't well-versed in feminist literature and there's usually a less broad description for the specific case you're talking about. For example, it's easy to think of programmers as men because working programmers are disproportionately likely to be men.
    - waqf 15y ago
      I agree, the "privilege" expression is adversarial and will offend people you might want to get onto your side. Personally, I instinctively ignore people who use it because it makes me think they either aren't serious about having a coöperative dialogue, or are as tactless as the people they're denouncing. Incidentally, I've seen it around a lot recently. Is it new, or newly popularized?
      - ebiester 15y ago
        I'm a white male. But a left handed male. I notice a pair of right handed scissors, or right handed kitchen tools, or a lack of left handed desks in a classroom whereas a right handed person would probably never notice. Why would it be controversial to point this out? It's not like anyone is trying to be malevolent in this case; it's just something they would never notice. They have the privilege of not having to notice. Now, in day to day life, being left handed is pretty benign, all things considered, and I don't think a right handed person should have to apologize for being right handed, or for not noticing the issues for us southpaws, but neither should they be defensive when it's pointed out to them. I think all most people are asking for is this: "It was noticed, it was corrected, we apologize, and we'll try and do better next time."
benwerd 15y ago
Male programmer in his thirties here: I automatically assumed they were looking for assholes.
- lemming 15y ago
  That seems pretty clear.
- rickmb 15y ago
  In other words, "a cultural match".
- abbasmehdi 15y ago
  I fell out my chair laughing when I read your comment. I think it was sexist, but they did say women should apply too. It's hard to spin that one, but I see it as an honest mistake, these guys are obviously new to the "real world".
- cheald 15y ago
  That's about the score. "Bro$suffix" is generally perjorative for "college-age male douchebag".

rezrovs 15y ago

Another woman programmer here: I'm glad I'm not the only one who assumed this.

ajross 15y ago
(Not a woman programmer here) The sad thing is that despite the clear evidence ("real women programmers read it as a gendered term") we'll no doubt see a ton of posts on this thread arguing that it's clearly not a problem. That said, I'm reasonably sure that it's not intentionally exclusionary. The poster had an image in their head of a work environment and came up with "brogrammer" as a catchy way to describe it. That this picture didn't include women is a huge problem, obviously, but I suspect it's probably not willful sexism.
- JackDanger 15y ago
  I agree that the poster may not have intended to exclude women, but when they imagined that work environment in their head I'll bet they weren't imagining it full of women writing code.
  - chc 15y ago
    In fairness, if you're starting a software company and you imagine a room full of women, you're either wholly ignorant of the demographics of the industry or you're planning to discriminate like crazy against men.

pingswept 15y ago

Interestingly, as an old male programmer, I also assumed that "brogrammer" does not include me. (Maybe it does, if I wear baggy pants or something.)

cjukjones 15y ago

Another woman programmer here: This is exactly what I assumed and I agree there is no way it can be considered a unisex term. I would assume the culture at the company is immature and not a place a woman programmer would want to work anyway, so I would avoid applying for any position at this company.

tsellon 15y ago
Fellow here, and that's how I read it as well--as a term to exclude (whether that be women, nerds, or the properly socialized). It was, however, a useful filter on my side--I work in speech technology and might have wasted time following up.

irahul 15y ago

> "Brogrammer," is not a unisex term, no matter how they try to spin it. No one sensible would try to spin it as unisex. I think it's simply an oversight on their part - more stronger than addressing a gathering "hey guys", but on the same lines.

ebiester 15y ago
But that's the point -- that kind of oversight happens because of male privilege. It's because it's easy to think of programmers as men, so much that you have an "oversight" about including women. That excludes women, and that's exactly what this kind of stuff needs to be called out. The problem isn't always one data point; but rather, there are a lot of these data points that are easy to dismiss one by one, but lead up to an avalanche when collectively viewed.
- chc 15y ago
  I agree with your overall thrust, but just a point that bugs me sometimes: Your comment would be much stronger without the "male privilege" explanation. That kind of talk has the wrong effect on people who aren't well-versed in feminist literature and there's usually a less broad description for the specific case you're talking about. For example, it's easy to think of programmers as men because working programmers are disproportionately likely to be men.
  - waqf 15y ago
    I agree, the "privilege" expression is adversarial and will offend people you might want to get onto your side. Personally, I instinctively ignore people who use it because it makes me think they either aren't serious about having a coöperative dialogue, or are as tactless as the people they're denouncing. Incidentally, I've seen it around a lot recently. Is it new, or newly popularized?
    - ebiester 15y ago
      I'm a white male. But a left handed male. I notice a pair of right handed scissors, or right handed kitchen tools, or a lack of left handed desks in a classroom whereas a right handed person would probably never notice. Why would it be controversial to point this out? It's not like anyone is trying to be malevolent in this case; it's just something they would never notice. They have the privilege of not having to notice. Now, in day to day life, being left handed is pretty benign, all things considered, and I don't think a right handed person should have to apologize for being right handed, or for not noticing the issues for us southpaws, but neither should they be defensive when it's pointed out to them. I think all most people are asking for is this: "It was noticed, it was corrected, we apologize, and we'll try and do better next time."

benwerd 15y ago

Male programmer in his thirties here: I automatically assumed they were looking for assholes.

lemming 15y ago
That seems pretty clear.
rickmb 15y ago
In other words, "a cultural match".
abbasmehdi 15y ago
I fell out my chair laughing when I read your comment. I think it was sexist, but they did say women should apply too. It's hard to spin that one, but I see it as an honest mistake, these guys are obviously new to the "real world".
cheald 15y ago
That's about the score. "Bro$suffix" is generally perjorative for "college-age male douchebag".