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We literally fought a war over the ability to secede from the union. The precedent for an indestructible pact once you're admitted to the united states is quite
by pg_bot 4y ago
We literally fought a war over the ability to secede from the union. The precedent for an indestructible pact once you're admitted to the united states is quite strong. Any state government that intended to leave would be seen as illegitimate and be dismantled by the feds.
You would need consent from the rest of the states in order to leave, and that isn't happening any time soon.
- throwaway9980 4y agoReally? If Florida wants to leave, who’s objecting to that? Half the remaining states would be on the side of “good riddance to bad rubbish” and the other half would support it because “let’s go Brandon!” I don’t think the hard part is getting people on board with it. The hard part is just getting a vote on it. EDIT to address your point: I think if enough people want it, it will happen. The Civil War was about slavery, no matter what some folks will say. The current direction isn’t towards war, it’s towards an indifference followed by dissolution. There’s no energy to keep Florida or Texas or California from leaving if that’s what a large majority want.
- hn_version_0023 4y agoI suspect that if the states from Florida to Texas all wanted to secede, a vote on that would be forthcoming nearly immediately.
- vkou 4y agoSo, Texas, Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama? If they raised this sort of thing to a vote, I would strongly hope that we let them build their own Republican utopia. They'll never raise this to a vote, though, because the last thing they want is for that wish to be granted. Complaining about the federal government when you've mismanaged your state is easy, actually having to manage it without relying on handouts is not.
- tstrimple 4y agoI disagree. The value of river access through the Gulf of Mexico would give the seceding states a stranglehold on our ag and oil exports.
- bitexploder 4y agoThe energy is the federal government itself. It owns the tanks and the bombs should your state decide to withdraw 'by force'. Never happening. The only valid option right now is to Amend the constitution which requires 38/50 states to ratify it. That is 76% of states. (e.g. never happening). The union is kind of a done deal until or unless the federal government somehow fails.
- throwaway9980 4y agoThere’s no scenario where a state leaves by force. There is a point at which apathy leads to dissolution. If no one cares, then it’s inevitable. It’s entropy.
- damontal 4y agoThose tanks and bombs and jets and nukes are kept in states though. A secessionist state with a federal arsenal could opt to hold onto it. Ukraine gave Russia the nukes it held within its border. Looking back probably not a great idea.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> tanks and bombs and jets and nukes are kept in states though We're talking about a military coup in the United States, which is a big topic, but technically, very few tanks and bombs or jets or nukes are in states. In part, for this reason. They're on federal property. States have militias; the U.S. has aircraft carriers and cruise missiles. If a secessionist government tried to invade federal territory, I would be wholly in favor of a decisive (if compassionate) military response.
- codefreeordie 4y agoThat federal property, though, is usually surrounded by states. The states could easily declare that it has seized that property. The bigger challenge, as it always is, is the people.
- 4y ago
- systemvoltage 4y ago> “good riddance to bad rubbish” As someone who lives in California, I thought you were talking about us. I wish I could move to Florida. Seems like a better place to live in almost all regards.
- gamblor956 4y agoThere's nothing stopping you from moving? Unless of course, Florida's hurricanes, mosquitos, sinking land, horrible people, and lackluster economy are keeping you from moving there?
- nonford150 4y agoAs if earthquakes, wildfires, and mudslides are something people look forward to.
- gamblor956 4y agoNotably, because CA has the nation's strongest building codes, we can handle Richter 6.0 earthquakes with essentially no damage except to the oldest buildings. OTOH, Florida begs for federal handouts every time there's a big storm because somehow they never get around to requiring developers to build flood-resistant structures.
- systemvoltage 4y ago> horrible people When someone calls an entire population of a state, nation, or region as "horrible people"; we call them bigots. It is time for introspection and reflection when you get to a point where everyone you don't agree with are horrible people. And it is not even true, most cities in Florida are democrats, but IMO that shouldn't matter. Usually this would be flagged, but it goes with the party lines I suppose so it is allowed.
- gamblor956 4y agoConsidering that the Florida governor's approval rating has gone up the more he picks on minorities and LGBTQ individuals, it's pretty clear that the governor's stance is shared by the overwhelming majority of Floridians, and I'm within my rights to think that the people who overwhelmingly think that my nephew is a freak are all horrible people. And it is not even true, most cities in Florida are democrats, but IMO that shouldn't matter. That is objectively false. Only the Miami-Dade metropolitan area in Florida leans blue.
- barsonme 4y agoI think you grossly over estimate how willing people would be to leave the Union. Eastern Washington and Oregon have been talking about seceding from their respective states for /years/ and absolutely nothing has come of it because—surprise—most people don’t want to leave. The number of people who are intensely political (who dislike Florida because politics or who are “Let’s go, Brandon!”) are a very small part of the population. They’re just very loud.
- codefreeordie 4y ago
- rayiner 4y agoI don't understand this argument at all. Why are New York and California so hell bent on keeping Texas in the union and telling it what to do? It seems to me that it would be preferable to them for red states to leave the union, so that blue states can have universal healthcare and government-funded abortions. I think this is actually at the root of why America's administrative capacity has become so weak. Administrators are, for want of a better phrase, not content to stay in their lane, and try to smuggle other ideological baggage through their administration, which breeds resentment and resistance. Transportation planners are not content to build the roads people want, but want to make people take trains instead. Educators and public health experts think it's their job to weigh on race relations. The administrative class has always been haughty, since its inception in the Wilson era, but now they've found religion and become evangelical about it.
- tomjakubowski 4y agoInterstate commerce is more important to society than either issue.
- vkou 4y ago> I don't understand this argument at all. Why are New York and California so hell bent on keeping Texas in the union and telling it what to do? No particular state is more hell-bent on keeping Texas in the union than Texas. All of the Texan talk of secession is just virtue signaling and pea-cocking, intended to drive the voter base to show up to the polls.
- rootusrootus 4y agoFor one, the construct of "red states" and "blue states" is wrong. It would be more like city states. Texas is barely hanging on to the idea that it is a "red state" as you would call it. A bit more domestic migration to the cities and it could easily become another "blue state." Most states that appear to lean in either direction at the governmental level have very substantial opposition voter populations. This is the biggest reason nobody is seriously going to consider secession, aside of rhetoric for the base.
- 4y ago
- rewgs 4y ago"You would need consent from the rest of the states in order to leave, and that isn't happening any time soon." That's like saying you need permission to break the law. Deep down, we all know that if you want to do a thing, you can just do it, and leave those who value systems and processes and order to grapple with it. Trump proved that. Edit: to be clear, I do not support or like this reality. But if you don't think that the right will do anything other than "lol u mad libs? deal with it" then you haven't been paying attention.