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Unlike Brexit, the first American civil war has set precedent to prevent secession. The first state to attempt secession will be labeled a word (like insurrecti

Unlike Brexit, the first American civil war has set precedent to prevent secession. The first state to attempt secession will be labeled a word (like insurrectionist, fascist, racist, etc.) and then, like Ukraine, invaded.

gowld 4y ago
Brexit was a pre-agreed process for secession. That's why it's different. US has anti-Federalists, though who can work to legally diminish the power of the central government.
- arethuza 4y ago
  Also worth noting that the UK itself has been perfectly reasonable (at least so far) about constituent countries that want to consider leaving - Scotland had an independence referendum and Northern Ireland has as a part of the Good Friday Agreement a possibility for uniting with the Republic.
- generalizations 4y ago
  Which IMHO would be a healthy counterbalance to the federalists who successfully increased the power of the central government during the 20th century.
  - JacobThreeThree 4y ago
    And almost every successive power grab by the federalists was sold as temporary, but has become permanent.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bitexploder 4y ago
What does secession even mean? People living in the state will still pay federal taxes (the true source of federal power). Declare all federal laws invalid? This is such a fantasy I don't even know why people discuss it. Ever since the Interstate commerce act and threading of federal funds into states it has become impossible to realistically secede even if you could logistically pull it off.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Secession would mean not paying federal taxes and repossessing federal assets within the seceding state. If you look to the Civil war, fighting wasn't kicked off by the declaration of separation, the flashpoint was possession of federal armories in southern states. I agree it is largely fantasy. The federal gov would never hand over bases in Texas, ect.
  - munk-a 4y ago
    I mean - only if the state residents revoked their citizenship. As a US citizen you enjoy the pleasure of paying federal taxes no matter where in the world you live.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      While generally true, this is on income over 110K and you can get a US tax credit for foreign taxes payed. It is strange that the US is one of the only countries in the world to tax citizens abroad.
    - krapp 4y ago
      Secession from the United States by definition means a revocation of citizenship. They're no longer a state, they're a nation that just happens to share landmass with the US, like Canada and Mexico, and their people are no longer American citizens, but citizens of that nation.
      - munk-a 4y ago
        Would that be all citizens? Using Florida as an example if they seceded would all current Florida residents lose their US citizenship? What about people visiting Florida - or those with multiple homes (snow birds etc...)? What if you personally object to the secession - would the US allow you to retain your citizenship and "immigrate" to Georgia? And, what if Florida refused to recognize a class of residents as new citizens? What would happen to all the federal prisoners located in Florida when secession happened - Florida probably doesn't want to adopt a large population of incarcerated Americans, they'd probably try to give them back to America somehow - ditto for incarcerated Floridians being held outside the state - though Florida might not want them back anyways. I think, at EOD, the US would probably offer continued US citizenship to any Florida residents who refused to accept Florida citizenship - which would likely result in Florida being a majority expat country, since, would you rather throw your personal future in with some new secessionist government or an established government that might end up eating Florida in a few weeks anyways?
ghiculescu 4y ago
(Not American here) Why do states never want other states to secede? It seems to me like if a state is taking more federal money than they return in tax, and they want out, most other states would benefit if they left. Why would you invade and force them to stay?
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Because it's just talk. No state in the union has anything like the military force required to close their borders and defend their territory. The rest of the states wouldn't bother invading, they'd just ignore them. What are they going to do, put mines on the Interstates? I guess it could get violent for a couple days.
- codefreeordie 4y ago
  Because they like forcing their will upon them and keeping them in poverty such that they need said handouts.
- sky-kedge0749 4y ago
  One of the most pro-Republican states is Wyoming, state population around 581,000 in 2020. If we consider Trump voters as a proxy for people who might want to secede, we have about 235,000 people who voted for Trump out of about 427,000 eligible. That's about 55% of eligible voters and 40% of the whole population. Even if secession were legal, it would be unjust to let a state secede with only 40% support. A more viable attempt at secession might look like: perhaps a new Hawaiian independence party forms with massive (>80%) and sustained (>20 years) on-the-ground support, with all federal representatives coming from this party. Eventually this party might convince the federal and enough state governments to support a constitutional amendment recognizing a specific independence referendum. That's very theoretical but I hope illustrates what actual secession might look like.
  - ghiculescu 4y ago
    If you don't live in Wyoming, why can you impose your idea of justice on them? It seems like a matter for Wyoming people to sort out.

gowld 4y ago

Brexit was a pre-agreed process for secession. That's why it's different. US has anti-Federalists, though who can work to legally diminish the power of the central government.

arethuza 4y ago
Also worth noting that the UK itself has been perfectly reasonable (at least so far) about constituent countries that want to consider leaving - Scotland had an independence referendum and Northern Ireland has as a part of the Good Friday Agreement a possibility for uniting with the Republic.
generalizations 4y ago
Which IMHO would be a healthy counterbalance to the federalists who successfully increased the power of the central government during the 20th century.
- JacobThreeThree 4y ago
  And almost every successive power grab by the federalists was sold as temporary, but has become permanent.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bitexploder 4y ago

What does secession even mean? People living in the state will still pay federal taxes (the true source of federal power). Declare all federal laws invalid? This is such a fantasy I don't even know why people discuss it. Ever since the Interstate commerce act and threading of federal funds into states it has become impossible to realistically secede even if you could logistically pull it off.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
Secession would mean not paying federal taxes and repossessing federal assets within the seceding state. If you look to the Civil war, fighting wasn't kicked off by the declaration of separation, the flashpoint was possession of federal armories in southern states. I agree it is largely fantasy. The federal gov would never hand over bases in Texas, ect.
- munk-a 4y ago
  I mean - only if the state residents revoked their citizenship. As a US citizen you enjoy the pleasure of paying federal taxes no matter where in the world you live.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    While generally true, this is on income over 110K and you can get a US tax credit for foreign taxes payed. It is strange that the US is one of the only countries in the world to tax citizens abroad.
  - krapp 4y ago
    Secession from the United States by definition means a revocation of citizenship. They're no longer a state, they're a nation that just happens to share landmass with the US, like Canada and Mexico, and their people are no longer American citizens, but citizens of that nation.
    - munk-a 4y ago
      Would that be all citizens? Using Florida as an example if they seceded would all current Florida residents lose their US citizenship? What about people visiting Florida - or those with multiple homes (snow birds etc...)? What if you personally object to the secession - would the US allow you to retain your citizenship and "immigrate" to Georgia? And, what if Florida refused to recognize a class of residents as new citizens? What would happen to all the federal prisoners located in Florida when secession happened - Florida probably doesn't want to adopt a large population of incarcerated Americans, they'd probably try to give them back to America somehow - ditto for incarcerated Floridians being held outside the state - though Florida might not want them back anyways. I think, at EOD, the US would probably offer continued US citizenship to any Florida residents who refused to accept Florida citizenship - which would likely result in Florida being a majority expat country, since, would you rather throw your personal future in with some new secessionist government or an established government that might end up eating Florida in a few weeks anyways?

ghiculescu 4y ago

(Not American here) Why do states never want other states to secede? It seems to me like if a state is taking more federal money than they return in tax, and they want out, most other states would benefit if they left. Why would you invade and force them to stay?

rootusrootus 4y ago
Because it's just talk. No state in the union has anything like the military force required to close their borders and defend their territory. The rest of the states wouldn't bother invading, they'd just ignore them. What are they going to do, put mines on the Interstates? I guess it could get violent for a couple days.
codefreeordie 4y ago
Because they like forcing their will upon them and keeping them in poverty such that they need said handouts.
sky-kedge0749 4y ago
One of the most pro-Republican states is Wyoming, state population around 581,000 in 2020. If we consider Trump voters as a proxy for people who might want to secede, we have about 235,000 people who voted for Trump out of about 427,000 eligible. That's about 55% of eligible voters and 40% of the whole population. Even if secession were legal, it would be unjust to let a state secede with only 40% support. A more viable attempt at secession might look like: perhaps a new Hawaiian independence party forms with massive (>80%) and sustained (>20 years) on-the-ground support, with all federal representatives coming from this party. Eventually this party might convince the federal and enough state governments to support a constitutional amendment recognizing a specific independence referendum. That's very theoretical but I hope illustrates what actual secession might look like.
- ghiculescu 4y ago
  If you don't live in Wyoming, why can you impose your idea of justice on them? It seems like a matter for Wyoming people to sort out.