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+1 to the other replies here, I think it's very poor form to throw the engineers under the bus for not being curious. The most likely explanation is they were u

+1 to the other replies here, I think it's very poor form to throw the engineers under the bus for not being curious. The most likely explanation is they were under insane time and resource constraints, especially in the games industry. They wrote something that worked, then were forced to move on to the other 5000 tasks in their backlog that had to get done before release. When you're already being told to crunch 80+ hour weeks for months or years at a time, you run out of gas. I guess it's possible that the engineers who were talented enough to create this extremely impressive game in the first place somehow threw up their hands and said "guess it can never take less than 7 minutes to load, best we can do". But it seems much more likely that they were well aware, but never allowed by poor management to go back and fix it. The game was released and printing money, why bother. They're on to the next title.

ALittleLight 4y ago
The problem with this way of thinking is that it basically absolves everyone of blame. Bad stuff happens and nobody's at fault. You point to the managers, because the engineers were so busy, but the managers are going to claim they were busy too. Again, from the manager's perspective - the managers aren't even in a position to understand the problem or the reasons for it.
- delusional 4y ago
  "the managers aren't even in a position to understand the problem or the reasons for it." Which is again the fault of management. It is the responsibility of management to facilitate proper management.
  - blowski 4y ago
    As a shareholder, I’d be rather happy with the management of GTA - it’s phenomenally profitable. That sounds like proper management to me.
- mrandish 4y ago
  Having been on both sides of this (as a developer and later a senior manager with product/feature responsibility), I'd say it can be both. A really good manager/executive has enough knowledge and experience to ask the right questions and parse the answers even when they are technical. Sadly, many managers aren't that good (at least yet). On the other side, a really good developer has the knowledge and experience to frame the problem in an understandable business context when communicating the issue and options to management. Some of the best work experiences I've ever had were in orgs with such experienced developers and managers. Working together we were often able to solve apparently intractable problems with creative options which would never have been conceived absent the clarity of thought and communication on both sides.
  - 420official 4y ago
    This thinking implies nothing is worth doing unless it has a clearly articulable direct business value whereas a lot of technical debt simply doesn't. When the only people affected by a problem are people who have already spent their money or people who have no autonomy it's unlikely the decision makers will decide to investigate and fix it. If you're lucky you can convince decision makers that there is an impact to hiring or efficiency but in my experience these arguments are extremely challenging to make in the face of other stuff that decision makers feel directly impact business, and for good reason. I'd say this is a big reason autonomy is crucial when it comes to cultivating a curious team because without autonomy you are limited to things that can achieve consensus in an environment where people inherently have different interests to attend to. I feel like the "20% time" paradigm where one day out of the week is left up to the developer to schedule (within reason) is the right way to balance the conflicts of interest and still leave room for people to be curious.
- redredrobot 4y ago
  You're pretty quick to act like there is a lot of blame to be allocated, but GTA 5 is arguably the most successful game in history. With games that truly have technical problems so bad they ruin the game, people don't complain - they just don't play it. Maybe a long load time just wasn't that important for the success of GTA.
azemetre 4y ago
It wasn’t my intention to blame engineers but I agree with the other reply to you, someone needs to be responsible for creating these environments. It’s not like we’re dealing with fundamental forces of nature here, this is all self afflicted.

ALittleLight 4y ago

The problem with this way of thinking is that it basically absolves everyone of blame. Bad stuff happens and nobody's at fault. You point to the managers, because the engineers were so busy, but the managers are going to claim they were busy too. Again, from the manager's perspective - the managers aren't even in a position to understand the problem or the reasons for it.

delusional 4y ago
"the managers aren't even in a position to understand the problem or the reasons for it." Which is again the fault of management. It is the responsibility of management to facilitate proper management.
- blowski 4y ago
  As a shareholder, I’d be rather happy with the management of GTA - it’s phenomenally profitable. That sounds like proper management to me.
mrandish 4y ago
Having been on both sides of this (as a developer and later a senior manager with product/feature responsibility), I'd say it can be both. A really good manager/executive has enough knowledge and experience to ask the right questions and parse the answers even when they are technical. Sadly, many managers aren't that good (at least yet). On the other side, a really good developer has the knowledge and experience to frame the problem in an understandable business context when communicating the issue and options to management. Some of the best work experiences I've ever had were in orgs with such experienced developers and managers. Working together we were often able to solve apparently intractable problems with creative options which would never have been conceived absent the clarity of thought and communication on both sides.
- 420official 4y ago
  This thinking implies nothing is worth doing unless it has a clearly articulable direct business value whereas a lot of technical debt simply doesn't. When the only people affected by a problem are people who have already spent their money or people who have no autonomy it's unlikely the decision makers will decide to investigate and fix it. If you're lucky you can convince decision makers that there is an impact to hiring or efficiency but in my experience these arguments are extremely challenging to make in the face of other stuff that decision makers feel directly impact business, and for good reason. I'd say this is a big reason autonomy is crucial when it comes to cultivating a curious team because without autonomy you are limited to things that can achieve consensus in an environment where people inherently have different interests to attend to. I feel like the "20% time" paradigm where one day out of the week is left up to the developer to schedule (within reason) is the right way to balance the conflicts of interest and still leave room for people to be curious.
redredrobot 4y ago
You're pretty quick to act like there is a lot of blame to be allocated, but GTA 5 is arguably the most successful game in history. With games that truly have technical problems so bad they ruin the game, people don't complain - they just don't play it. Maybe a long load time just wasn't that important for the success of GTA.

azemetre 4y ago

It wasn’t my intention to blame engineers but I agree with the other reply to you, someone needs to be responsible for creating these environments. It’s not like we’re dealing with fundamental forces of nature here, this is all self afflicted.