6 ms·

Let's hope you make a better fist of it than the UK - the NHS is currently unreformable to any significant degree, due to it being weaponised by the left.

by an9n 4y ago

mousetree 4y ago
Could you share more? Curious to understand the issues of the NHS and why it can't be reformed and what it means to be weaponised by the left
- an9n 4y ago
  See my comment above - the weaponise term is from a quote that was disavowed by the Labour leader-before-last, but that he certainly seems to have spoken. Here's an article on the topic - from a socialist source: https://www.sochealth.co.uk/2015/04/28/weaponizing-the-nhs-isnt-helping-it/ https://www.sochealth.co.uk/2015/04/28/weaponizing-the-nhs-i... 'many campaigners who want to “Save” the NHS seem to want to do the opposite – to politicise the NHS so far that reform becomes a practical impossibility. They create alarm about cuts to local services, privatization, postcode lotteries and TTIP. They seem more motivated by anger, and fixated on political totems, than on trying to promote progress within the NHS.' 'The problem with Labour’s campaign to “weaponize” the NHS and turn it into a key political battleground, and its politically motivated and gimmicky manifesto pledges, is that it distracts from the real work that is needed: devolved reforms led by clinicians. We could have yet another 2 year hiatus. The NHS can ill-afford that.' The kneejerk downvotes on HN are so depressing, especially when they are borne out of ignorance (not you btw, your comment is good).
arcticbull 4y ago
UK per capita health expenditure: $4650USD (#17). US per capita health expenditure: $11000USD (#1). I don't know what the 'left' is doing there but it seems very efficient.
- cpach 4y ago
  Would be interesting to compare also with countries like Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, Singapore etc.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    I should have linked my source. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...
- pc86 4y ago
  Don't get me wrong, I think claiming the NHS has been "weaponized by the left" is idiotic, but I don't see how PC expenditures support or refute that point?
  - an9n 4y ago
    I got this terminology straight from the horse's mouth: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/12/labour-refuses-confirm-miliband-weaponise-nhs-election-campaign https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/12/labour-refu... 'Labour has defended the way it is campaigning on the NHS – but once again refused to confirm that Ed Miliband told the BBC that he wanted to “weaponise” the NHS in the election campaign.' 'The spokesman said: “I am not going to talk about words used in private conversations. They should not be shared and we will not talk about private conversations.' Another mention of the term: https://nhsproviders.org/news-blogs/blogs/dont-weaponise-the-nhs https://nhsproviders.org/news-blogs/blogs/dont-weaponise-the... If there were no danger of the NHS being weaponised, the term would go out of common use. Do you still consider my use of a term coined by the left themselves as 'idiotic'?
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      What on earth kind of weapon is it? It's a nonsense statement.
      - 4y ago
maybeOneDay 4y ago
I'd love to see an analysis of proposed reforms since 2010 that have tried to do anything other than move the NHS towards not being socialized medicine. I suspect the list would be vanishingly small. Maybe this is me "weaponising" the NHS but you're going to have to provide a bit more evidence if you're making such a bold claim.
TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
We all know the answer to this. Every single person in the world. The way to fix the US system is for the health insurance market to be regulated like the auto insurance market, i.e., break up the state monopolies. Then for our employers to give us the money they're paying on our behalf. Then we could shop for a health insurance plan like auto insurance. Within a couple of years, the market would start sorting out the costs. But no. We'll get socialized medicine. And it will look much like our disastrous Veterans Health Administration.
- rscho 4y ago
  Socialized medicine makes the best healthcare systems in the world. Talk about being rational.
- rnk 4y ago
  That's incredibly naive. I can already shop for health plans in the us, and it's a shitty result. The rest of the wealthy western world has national health insurance and it works really well. The US is the broken system with declining health of its citizens, even before COVID.
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    > The rest of the wealthy western world has national health insurance and it works really well. If you talk to people who immigrate to US from those countries with national health insurance, you’ll find that what you claim above is by no means a consensus. For example, I immigrated to US from Poland, and in my opinion, US healthcare is much superior to Polish socialized healthcare, in terms of quality and availability. Cost wise, it’s more expensive, but my out of pocket costs are too small for me to care about: my employer pays for health insurance, which is a benefit on top of my wages, instead of being subtracted from my wages like in Poland. My deductible is low, and so are my copays and out of pocket maximums. This is opinion shared by most of my Polish friends in US. Back in Poland, socialized healthcare is held in low regard, lines are long, quality is low, and a lot of people, especially in cities, pay for healthcare from private providers anyway.
matsemann 4y ago
Eh, wasn't it pro-brexit that had banners saying "we're sending hundreds of millions £ to the EU each week, let's fund the NHS instead"?
DanBC 4y ago
When you consider the massive reforms carried out by Lansley (a Conservative health minister. These reforms caused huge problems, didn't particularly work, were widely misunderstood even by his own party, and are now being rolled back) and now the Hunt/Hancock/Javid reforms to ICSs it's just plain wrong to say "the NHS can't be reformed".

Let's hope you make a better fist of it than the UK - the NHS is currently unreformable to any significant degree, due to it being weaponised by the left.

by an9n 4y ago

Let's hope you make a better fist of it than the UK - the NHS is currently unreformable to any significant degree, due to it being weaponised by the left.

mousetree 4y ago

Could you share more? Curious to understand the issues of the NHS and why it can't be reformed and what it means to be weaponised by the left

an9n 4y ago
See my comment above - the weaponise term is from a quote that was disavowed by the Labour leader-before-last, but that he certainly seems to have spoken. Here's an article on the topic - from a socialist source: https://www.sochealth.co.uk/2015/04/28/weaponizing-the-nhs-isnt-helping-it/ https://www.sochealth.co.uk/2015/04/28/weaponizing-the-nhs-i... 'many campaigners who want to “Save” the NHS seem to want to do the opposite – to politicise the NHS so far that reform becomes a practical impossibility. They create alarm about cuts to local services, privatization, postcode lotteries and TTIP. They seem more motivated by anger, and fixated on political totems, than on trying to promote progress within the NHS.' 'The problem with Labour’s campaign to “weaponize” the NHS and turn it into a key political battleground, and its politically motivated and gimmicky manifesto pledges, is that it distracts from the real work that is needed: devolved reforms led by clinicians. We could have yet another 2 year hiatus. The NHS can ill-afford that.' The kneejerk downvotes on HN are so depressing, especially when they are borne out of ignorance (not you btw, your comment is good).

arcticbull 4y ago

UK per capita health expenditure: $4650USD (#17). US per capita health expenditure: $11000USD (#1). I don't know what the 'left' is doing there but it seems very efficient.

cpach 4y ago
Would be interesting to compare also with countries like Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, Singapore etc.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  I should have linked my source. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...
pc86 4y ago
Don't get me wrong, I think claiming the NHS has been "weaponized by the left" is idiotic, but I don't see how PC expenditures support or refute that point?
- an9n 4y ago
  I got this terminology straight from the horse's mouth: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/12/labour-refuses-confirm-miliband-weaponise-nhs-election-campaign https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/12/labour-refu... 'Labour has defended the way it is campaigning on the NHS – but once again refused to confirm that Ed Miliband told the BBC that he wanted to “weaponise” the NHS in the election campaign.' 'The spokesman said: “I am not going to talk about words used in private conversations. They should not be shared and we will not talk about private conversations.' Another mention of the term: https://nhsproviders.org/news-blogs/blogs/dont-weaponise-the-nhs https://nhsproviders.org/news-blogs/blogs/dont-weaponise-the... If there were no danger of the NHS being weaponised, the term would go out of common use. Do you still consider my use of a term coined by the left themselves as 'idiotic'?
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    What on earth kind of weapon is it? It's a nonsense statement.
    - 4y ago

maybeOneDay 4y ago

I'd love to see an analysis of proposed reforms since 2010 that have tried to do anything other than move the NHS towards not being socialized medicine. I suspect the list would be vanishingly small. Maybe this is me "weaponising" the NHS but you're going to have to provide a bit more evidence if you're making such a bold claim.

TheRealDunkirk 4y ago

We all know the answer to this. Every single person in the world. The way to fix the US system is for the health insurance market to be regulated like the auto insurance market, i.e., break up the state monopolies. Then for our employers to give us the money they're paying on our behalf. Then we could shop for a health insurance plan like auto insurance. Within a couple of years, the market would start sorting out the costs. But no. We'll get socialized medicine. And it will look much like our disastrous Veterans Health Administration.

rscho 4y ago
Socialized medicine makes the best healthcare systems in the world. Talk about being rational.
rnk 4y ago
That's incredibly naive. I can already shop for health plans in the us, and it's a shitty result. The rest of the wealthy western world has national health insurance and it works really well. The US is the broken system with declining health of its citizens, even before COVID.
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  > The rest of the wealthy western world has national health insurance and it works really well. If you talk to people who immigrate to US from those countries with national health insurance, you’ll find that what you claim above is by no means a consensus. For example, I immigrated to US from Poland, and in my opinion, US healthcare is much superior to Polish socialized healthcare, in terms of quality and availability. Cost wise, it’s more expensive, but my out of pocket costs are too small for me to care about: my employer pays for health insurance, which is a benefit on top of my wages, instead of being subtracted from my wages like in Poland. My deductible is low, and so are my copays and out of pocket maximums. This is opinion shared by most of my Polish friends in US. Back in Poland, socialized healthcare is held in low regard, lines are long, quality is low, and a lot of people, especially in cities, pay for healthcare from private providers anyway.

matsemann 4y ago

Eh, wasn't it pro-brexit that had banners saying "we're sending hundreds of millions £ to the EU each week, let's fund the NHS instead"?

DanBC 4y ago

When you consider the massive reforms carried out by Lansley (a Conservative health minister. These reforms caused huge problems, didn't particularly work, were widely misunderstood even by his own party, and are now being rolled back) and now the Hunt/Hancock/Javid reforms to ICSs it's just plain wrong to say "the NHS can't be reformed".