3 ms·

To be fair, there is a difference. Censorship means suppressing information and carries a connotation of "the government doesn't want you to know something". Fi

by franga2000 4y ago

To be fair, there is a difference. Censorship means suppressing information and carries a connotation of "the government doesn't want you to know something". Filtering is one way to achieve that, but it can also be used for other purposes. Blocking illegal content isn't censorship. It creates the technical framework and weak precedent for censorship and I agree we shouldn't do it this way, but it's not more censorship than seizing a bunch of copied DVDs at the border would be.

weberer 4y ago
>Blocking illegal content isn't censorship That's a nonsense statement. Declaring something illegal is how governments censor.
- franga2000 4y ago
  It's also how they prevent and punish genuinely bad behavior, which is why you need to look at why a certain thing is illegal, not just whether it is or isn't. Does the law say "you may not write bad things about the government or good things about gay people and if you do we'll block your site"? Anything blocked under that law is censorship. Does it say "you must have permission from the rightsholder to distribute any copyrighted material and if you don't we'll block your site"? Blocking under that law, whether you agree with it or not, isn't censorship.
  - sib 4y ago
    "you must have permission from the rightsholder to distribute any copyrighted material and if you don't we'll block your site"? Blocking under that law, whether you agree with it or not, isn't censorship. But that is not "illegal content" - that is illegal sharing of legal content. The government making content itself illegal is much much the definition of censorship.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      So would you be okay if a company “illegally” used and distributed GPL software?
      - nybble41 4y ago
        Sure, as long as the same rules applied to their own works. That's the whole motivation behind copyleft licenses: to turn copyright against itself. Without copyright there would be no need for copyleft, the GPL included.
      - sib 4y ago
        No. That doesn't follow from my comment. What I am saying is that a government's making laws against distribution of software is not censorship.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
> Blocking illegal content isn't censorship Does your definition depend on what is illegal? For example, if an incumbent government were able to illegalize media from opposing parties, and ISPs blocked the websites of those parties, is it filtering or censorship?
- goosedragons 4y ago
  It's censorship if they've blocked every way or the only way to view some peice of media. It's filtering if you can still see it after plunking down $19.95 or whatever.
  - evandale 4y ago
    I wish you could get sports legally in Canada for $19.95. Last I checked you need something like a $60 cable membership to even get the ability to pay $20 for sports packages and even that won't get you much. On top of that, the insane prices are regulated by the CRTC, a regulatory body controlled by the companies that are setting the prices and think this is totally fair.
    - folkrav 4y ago
      > a regulatory body controlled by the companies that are setting the prices To be precise, the CRTC is theorically an independent public entity. In practice however, the chairman since 2017 is Ian Scott, an ex-lobbyist who worked for ISPs and telecommunications companies. He's been caught meeting with one of our major ISPs' (Bell) then-COO, now CEO Mirko Bibic, right before overturning their own 2019 order that would have forced large ISPs to lower their wholesale rates to smaller ISPs, rolling them back to previous (much higher) 2016 values. The CRTC is a joke.
- lupire 4y ago
  a better way to say it is if the content creator doesn't want you to receive it, blocking it isn't "censorship". You wouldn't say that they GPDR or anti-tracking web browser tech is censorship, would you?
filleokus 4y ago
I agree with you that seizing counterfeit goods is similar to this, and not censorship, but at the same time it’s dangerous/unhelpful to define censorship based on wether the goods/information is “legal” or not. I’m guessing most authoritarian censorship is, in the local legal system, just seizing illegal goods. Wether its censorship or not is more dependent on the type of information/goods, and to some extent the moral or cultural framework of the observer. Is the suggested ban in Sweden on posting photos/videos of dead people censorship or just a reasonable way to protect relatives of e.g terrorist attacks?
dotancohen 4y ago
> not more censorship than seizing a bunch of copied DVDs at the border would be. That would be true if it were in fact content that was being filtered. But in this case it is IP addresses that are being blocked, ostensibly as a proxy for context.
- dspillett 4y ago
  That doesn't make it censorship, just badly implemented filtering. A sledgehammer with a broken handle to crack a nut.
  - shkkmo 4y ago
    That is silly sementic wiggling in am attempt to refedine a word. "Censorship" isn't a just a word that only applies to bad government controls of speech, but any control, even if warranted. If your IP is being blocked in a country due to a court order you are absolutely being censored.
    - dotancohen 4y ago
      > If your IP is being blocked in a country due to a court order you are absolutely being censored. Doubly so when taken shared hosting into consideration. I've still got old websites running with who-knows-what-else on old hosting accounts, all those sites sharing an IP address.
ipaddr 4y ago
Blocking illegal content is censorship.

weberer 4y ago

>Blocking illegal content isn't censorship That's a nonsense statement. Declaring something illegal is how governments censor.

franga2000 4y ago
It's also how they prevent and punish genuinely bad behavior, which is why you need to look at why a certain thing is illegal, not just whether it is or isn't. Does the law say "you may not write bad things about the government or good things about gay people and if you do we'll block your site"? Anything blocked under that law is censorship. Does it say "you must have permission from the rightsholder to distribute any copyrighted material and if you don't we'll block your site"? Blocking under that law, whether you agree with it or not, isn't censorship.
- sib 4y ago
  "you must have permission from the rightsholder to distribute any copyrighted material and if you don't we'll block your site"? Blocking under that law, whether you agree with it or not, isn't censorship. But that is not "illegal content" - that is illegal sharing of legal content. The government making content itself illegal is much much the definition of censorship.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    So would you be okay if a company “illegally” used and distributed GPL software?
    - nybble41 4y ago
      Sure, as long as the same rules applied to their own works. That's the whole motivation behind copyleft licenses: to turn copyright against itself. Without copyright there would be no need for copyleft, the GPL included.
    - sib 4y ago
      No. That doesn't follow from my comment. What I am saying is that a government's making laws against distribution of software is not censorship.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago

> Blocking illegal content isn't censorship Does your definition depend on what is illegal? For example, if an incumbent government were able to illegalize media from opposing parties, and ISPs blocked the websites of those parties, is it filtering or censorship?

goosedragons 4y ago
It's censorship if they've blocked every way or the only way to view some peice of media. It's filtering if you can still see it after plunking down $19.95 or whatever.
- evandale 4y ago
  I wish you could get sports legally in Canada for $19.95. Last I checked you need something like a $60 cable membership to even get the ability to pay $20 for sports packages and even that won't get you much. On top of that, the insane prices are regulated by the CRTC, a regulatory body controlled by the companies that are setting the prices and think this is totally fair.
  - folkrav 4y ago
    > a regulatory body controlled by the companies that are setting the prices To be precise, the CRTC is theorically an independent public entity. In practice however, the chairman since 2017 is Ian Scott, an ex-lobbyist who worked for ISPs and telecommunications companies. He's been caught meeting with one of our major ISPs' (Bell) then-COO, now CEO Mirko Bibic, right before overturning their own 2019 order that would have forced large ISPs to lower their wholesale rates to smaller ISPs, rolling them back to previous (much higher) 2016 values. The CRTC is a joke.
lupire 4y ago
a better way to say it is if the content creator doesn't want you to receive it, blocking it isn't "censorship". You wouldn't say that they GPDR or anti-tracking web browser tech is censorship, would you?

filleokus 4y ago

I agree with you that seizing counterfeit goods is similar to this, and not censorship, but at the same time it’s dangerous/unhelpful to define censorship based on wether the goods/information is “legal” or not. I’m guessing most authoritarian censorship is, in the local legal system, just seizing illegal goods. Wether its censorship or not is more dependent on the type of information/goods, and to some extent the moral or cultural framework of the observer. Is the suggested ban in Sweden on posting photos/videos of dead people censorship or just a reasonable way to protect relatives of e.g terrorist attacks?

dotancohen 4y ago

> not more censorship than seizing a bunch of copied DVDs at the border would be. That would be true if it were in fact content that was being filtered. But in this case it is IP addresses that are being blocked, ostensibly as a proxy for context.

dspillett 4y ago
That doesn't make it censorship, just badly implemented filtering. A sledgehammer with a broken handle to crack a nut.
- shkkmo 4y ago
  That is silly sementic wiggling in am attempt to refedine a word. "Censorship" isn't a just a word that only applies to bad government controls of speech, but any control, even if warranted. If your IP is being blocked in a country due to a court order you are absolutely being censored.
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    > If your IP is being blocked in a country due to a court order you are absolutely being censored. Doubly so when taken shared hosting into consideration. I've still got old websites running with who-knows-what-else on old hosting accounts, all those sites sharing an IP address.

ipaddr 4y ago

Blocking illegal content is censorship.