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> trying to unpick hundreds of years of history and population mixing to work out exactly who should be a beneficiary seems an impossibility. That’s definitely

> trying to unpick hundreds of years of history and population mixing to work out exactly who should be a beneficiary seems an impossibility. That’s definitely interesting. Consider: - Stalin paid for American war supplies with gold during WWII (see HMS Edinburgh e.g.); - This gold was obtained via forced labor; - My relatives were made part of the forced labor force; Not yet a hundred of years of history, not much of population mixing yet - I am here and not mixed with anyone except my wife, not much to unpick. So just tell me: which part of the US Treasury should be mine, if you do not want to endorse imperialistic looting?

RobertoG 4y ago
Ironically, part of that gold came from Spain. History is complicated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_gold_(Spain) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_gold_(Spain)
towaway15463 4y ago
Exactly, if we attempt to adjudicate crimes committed by people long dead by using their descendants as stand ins then we will be quickly overcome by madness. Its just nonsensical, you can’t come to a just conclusion with no evidence, no witnesses and no suspects remaining. You might as well write a fantasy story and call it truth.
mushbino 4y ago
The overwhelming majority of forced labor done in Soviet Russia at the time was done by people convinced of crimes, same as in the US. The difference being they were paid the same as regular laborers outside of the gulags. The US currently has the largest population of forced laborers in the world (paid between $0.09 - $1.50/hr). Even larger than the Soviet Union at the height of Stalin's gulag system. In this case we're talking about a native culture that was destroyed, subjugated, colonized, and enslaved. Imo, they should do the best they can to pay reparations of some sort to the remaining native populations and not just in Colombia. That would be the right thing to do, but unfortunately governments would never willingly set the precedent of correcting historical wrongs.
- namlem 4y ago
  Except in the USSR, these "crimes" often just meant opposition to Stalin's regime.
  - mushbino 4y ago
    Countries decide what is and is not a crime and every major power has these types of prisoners to an extent. One example, the US has been holding prisoners, some for 20 years who haven't been given due process, no charges, no conviction. We've done drone strikes on American citizens who weren't even accused of crimes, along with strikes against their families. This is not to even mention black sites, extraordinary rendition, and places like Abu Ghraib. Saudí Arabia, our close ally, cuts off limbs for theft and has public beheadings for many crimes (recently over 80 in one day). Having an accurate historical context and an understanding of the nuanced nature of history makes a difference. As far as the Spanish Conquest of the Americas goes, it's hard to wrap your head around the destruction they caused over hundreds of years. Entire cultures and civilians wiped out, indigenous populations worked to death in the millions. Also all of the natural resources exploited (which still happens to this day, unfortunately).
- tpm 4y ago
  > The overwhelming majority of forced labor done in Soviet Russia at the time was done by people convinced of crimes, No, not at all. The people were not convinced by courts (sometimes kangaroo courts, other times not even that), and the thing they were conviced of were not crimes. And also there were forced labourers from other countries involved. > In this case we're talking about a native culture that was destroyed, subjugated, colonized, and enslaved. So actually completely the same thing that Stalin has done to other cultures in the Soviet Imperium, including vassal states.
  - mushbino 4y ago
    That's not historically accurate. Since Glasnost and the opening of the Soviet archives we've been able to get a more accurate picture of these things. https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/archive/noticeboard/bergson/borodkin-ertz.pdf https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/arch... There were some political prisoners, but much in the same way we imprisoned some British after the revolutionary war and later confederates. Also, someone being convinced of something without committing a crime is a non sequitur. Countries can make whatever laws they want. I get where you're coming from, until I started studying Russian history I had the same view, I grew up with the same Cold War info like everyone else, but comparing that to the Spanish conquest of the Americas is night and day. The immense destruction has been unmatched in history (that we definitively know).

RobertoG 4y ago

Ironically, part of that gold came from Spain. History is complicated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_gold_(Spain) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_gold_(Spain)

towaway15463 4y ago

Exactly, if we attempt to adjudicate crimes committed by people long dead by using their descendants as stand ins then we will be quickly overcome by madness. Its just nonsensical, you can’t come to a just conclusion with no evidence, no witnesses and no suspects remaining. You might as well write a fantasy story and call it truth.

mushbino 4y ago

The overwhelming majority of forced labor done in Soviet Russia at the time was done by people convinced of crimes, same as in the US. The difference being they were paid the same as regular laborers outside of the gulags. The US currently has the largest population of forced laborers in the world (paid between $0.09 - $1.50/hr). Even larger than the Soviet Union at the height of Stalin's gulag system. In this case we're talking about a native culture that was destroyed, subjugated, colonized, and enslaved. Imo, they should do the best they can to pay reparations of some sort to the remaining native populations and not just in Colombia. That would be the right thing to do, but unfortunately governments would never willingly set the precedent of correcting historical wrongs.

namlem 4y ago
Except in the USSR, these "crimes" often just meant opposition to Stalin's regime.
- mushbino 4y ago
  Countries decide what is and is not a crime and every major power has these types of prisoners to an extent. One example, the US has been holding prisoners, some for 20 years who haven't been given due process, no charges, no conviction. We've done drone strikes on American citizens who weren't even accused of crimes, along with strikes against their families. This is not to even mention black sites, extraordinary rendition, and places like Abu Ghraib. Saudí Arabia, our close ally, cuts off limbs for theft and has public beheadings for many crimes (recently over 80 in one day). Having an accurate historical context and an understanding of the nuanced nature of history makes a difference. As far as the Spanish Conquest of the Americas goes, it's hard to wrap your head around the destruction they caused over hundreds of years. Entire cultures and civilians wiped out, indigenous populations worked to death in the millions. Also all of the natural resources exploited (which still happens to this day, unfortunately).
tpm 4y ago
> The overwhelming majority of forced labor done in Soviet Russia at the time was done by people convinced of crimes, No, not at all. The people were not convinced by courts (sometimes kangaroo courts, other times not even that), and the thing they were conviced of were not crimes. And also there were forced labourers from other countries involved. > In this case we're talking about a native culture that was destroyed, subjugated, colonized, and enslaved. So actually completely the same thing that Stalin has done to other cultures in the Soviet Imperium, including vassal states.
- mushbino 4y ago
  That's not historically accurate. Since Glasnost and the opening of the Soviet archives we've been able to get a more accurate picture of these things. https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/archive/noticeboard/bergson/borodkin-ertz.pdf https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/arch... There were some political prisoners, but much in the same way we imprisoned some British after the revolutionary war and later confederates. Also, someone being convinced of something without committing a crime is a non sequitur. Countries can make whatever laws they want. I get where you're coming from, until I started studying Russian history I had the same view, I grew up with the same Cold War info like everyone else, but comparing that to the Spanish conquest of the Americas is night and day. The immense destruction has been unmatched in history (that we definitively know).