4 ms·

Determining the owner of this treasure will be fascinating. By modern standards, the treasures are ill-gotten gains, extracted by force from an occupied territo

by jl6 4y ago

Determining the owner of this treasure will be fascinating. By modern standards, the treasures are ill-gotten gains, extracted by force from an occupied territory. But it was so long ago that the countries and populations involved have only passing resemblance to their modern descendants. Spain does appear to have recognized law on their side - it was a Spanish flagged ship, and modern Spain is the recognized successor of historical imperial Spain. But giving the treasure to Spain would be tantamount to endorsing colonial looting. On the other hand, giving it to anyone else sets a precedent for distributing colonial-era wealth as some form of reparations, and trying to unpick hundreds of years of history and population mixing to work out exactly who should be a beneficiary seems an impossibility. Maybe it should stay sunken until we have matured a little more as a species.

zivkovicp 4y ago
I think it's a clear cut case of "finders keepers" :)
MikePlacid 4y ago
> trying to unpick hundreds of years of history and population mixing to work out exactly who should be a beneficiary seems an impossibility. That’s definitely interesting. Consider: - Stalin paid for American war supplies with gold during WWII (see HMS Edinburgh e.g.); - This gold was obtained via forced labor; - My relatives were made part of the forced labor force; Not yet a hundred of years of history, not much of population mixing yet - I am here and not mixed with anyone except my wife, not much to unpick. So just tell me: which part of the US Treasury should be mine, if you do not want to endorse imperialistic looting?
- RobertoG 4y ago
  Ironically, part of that gold came from Spain. History is complicated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_gold_(Spain) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_gold_(Spain)
- towaway15463 4y ago
  Exactly, if we attempt to adjudicate crimes committed by people long dead by using their descendants as stand ins then we will be quickly overcome by madness. Its just nonsensical, you can’t come to a just conclusion with no evidence, no witnesses and no suspects remaining. You might as well write a fantasy story and call it truth.
- mushbino 4y ago
  The overwhelming majority of forced labor done in Soviet Russia at the time was done by people convinced of crimes, same as in the US. The difference being they were paid the same as regular laborers outside of the gulags. The US currently has the largest population of forced laborers in the world (paid between $0.09 - $1.50/hr). Even larger than the Soviet Union at the height of Stalin's gulag system. In this case we're talking about a native culture that was destroyed, subjugated, colonized, and enslaved. Imo, they should do the best they can to pay reparations of some sort to the remaining native populations and not just in Colombia. That would be the right thing to do, but unfortunately governments would never willingly set the precedent of correcting historical wrongs.
  - namlem 4y ago
    Except in the USSR, these "crimes" often just meant opposition to Stalin's regime.
    - mushbino 4y ago
      Countries decide what is and is not a crime and every major power has these types of prisoners to an extent. One example, the US has been holding prisoners, some for 20 years who haven't been given due process, no charges, no conviction. We've done drone strikes on American citizens who weren't even accused of crimes, along with strikes against their families. This is not to even mention black sites, extraordinary rendition, and places like Abu Ghraib. Saudí Arabia, our close ally, cuts off limbs for theft and has public beheadings for many crimes (recently over 80 in one day). Having an accurate historical context and an understanding of the nuanced nature of history makes a difference. As far as the Spanish Conquest of the Americas goes, it's hard to wrap your head around the destruction they caused over hundreds of years. Entire cultures and civilians wiped out, indigenous populations worked to death in the millions. Also all of the natural resources exploited (which still happens to this day, unfortunately).
  - tpm 4y ago
    > The overwhelming majority of forced labor done in Soviet Russia at the time was done by people convinced of crimes, No, not at all. The people were not convinced by courts (sometimes kangaroo courts, other times not even that), and the thing they were conviced of were not crimes. And also there were forced labourers from other countries involved. > In this case we're talking about a native culture that was destroyed, subjugated, colonized, and enslaved. So actually completely the same thing that Stalin has done to other cultures in the Soviet Imperium, including vassal states.
ginko 4y ago
I'd say it's pretty clear-cut. Colombia gets to keep the treasure and that's that. Especially since you can argue that Colombia is a successor state of the Spanish Empire anyways.
- dandellion 4y ago
  As a Spaniard, I think Colombia should keep it. It would be really nice if they gave us a few pieces, so maybe we can put them in a museum, but I think it's understandable if they want to keep it.
Kon-Peki 4y ago
> Spain does appear to have recognized law on their side - it was a Spanish flagged ship, and modern Spain is the recognized successor of historical imperial Spain. Hold on!!! First, this ship sank in the middle of the night - after fierce fighting with HMS Expedition. Were her colors still flying at the time of the explosion, or had she surrendered to the superior British fleet, as other Spanish ships already had? Second, this took place at a time when the rightful monarch of Spain was in dispute. Two people claimed to be King. Who really was the rightful ruler, and was the ship sailing under his orders at the time? It's not so clear cut after all...

by jl6 4y ago

zivkovicp 4y ago

I think it's a clear cut case of "finders keepers" :)

MikePlacid 4y ago

> trying to unpick hundreds of years of history and population mixing to work out exactly who should be a beneficiary seems an impossibility. That’s definitely interesting. Consider: - Stalin paid for American war supplies with gold during WWII (see HMS Edinburgh e.g.); - This gold was obtained via forced labor; - My relatives were made part of the forced labor force; Not yet a hundred of years of history, not much of population mixing yet - I am here and not mixed with anyone except my wife, not much to unpick. So just tell me: which part of the US Treasury should be mine, if you do not want to endorse imperialistic looting?

RobertoG 4y ago
Ironically, part of that gold came from Spain. History is complicated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_gold_(Spain) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_gold_(Spain)
towaway15463 4y ago
Exactly, if we attempt to adjudicate crimes committed by people long dead by using their descendants as stand ins then we will be quickly overcome by madness. Its just nonsensical, you can’t come to a just conclusion with no evidence, no witnesses and no suspects remaining. You might as well write a fantasy story and call it truth.
mushbino 4y ago
The overwhelming majority of forced labor done in Soviet Russia at the time was done by people convinced of crimes, same as in the US. The difference being they were paid the same as regular laborers outside of the gulags. The US currently has the largest population of forced laborers in the world (paid between $0.09 - $1.50/hr). Even larger than the Soviet Union at the height of Stalin's gulag system. In this case we're talking about a native culture that was destroyed, subjugated, colonized, and enslaved. Imo, they should do the best they can to pay reparations of some sort to the remaining native populations and not just in Colombia. That would be the right thing to do, but unfortunately governments would never willingly set the precedent of correcting historical wrongs.
- namlem 4y ago
  Except in the USSR, these "crimes" often just meant opposition to Stalin's regime.
  - mushbino 4y ago
    Countries decide what is and is not a crime and every major power has these types of prisoners to an extent. One example, the US has been holding prisoners, some for 20 years who haven't been given due process, no charges, no conviction. We've done drone strikes on American citizens who weren't even accused of crimes, along with strikes against their families. This is not to even mention black sites, extraordinary rendition, and places like Abu Ghraib. Saudí Arabia, our close ally, cuts off limbs for theft and has public beheadings for many crimes (recently over 80 in one day). Having an accurate historical context and an understanding of the nuanced nature of history makes a difference. As far as the Spanish Conquest of the Americas goes, it's hard to wrap your head around the destruction they caused over hundreds of years. Entire cultures and civilians wiped out, indigenous populations worked to death in the millions. Also all of the natural resources exploited (which still happens to this day, unfortunately).
- tpm 4y ago
  > The overwhelming majority of forced labor done in Soviet Russia at the time was done by people convinced of crimes, No, not at all. The people were not convinced by courts (sometimes kangaroo courts, other times not even that), and the thing they were conviced of were not crimes. And also there were forced labourers from other countries involved. > In this case we're talking about a native culture that was destroyed, subjugated, colonized, and enslaved. So actually completely the same thing that Stalin has done to other cultures in the Soviet Imperium, including vassal states.

ginko 4y ago

I'd say it's pretty clear-cut. Colombia gets to keep the treasure and that's that. Especially since you can argue that Colombia is a successor state of the Spanish Empire anyways.

dandellion 4y ago
As a Spaniard, I think Colombia should keep it. It would be really nice if they gave us a few pieces, so maybe we can put them in a museum, but I think it's understandable if they want to keep it.

Kon-Peki 4y ago

> Spain does appear to have recognized law on their side - it was a Spanish flagged ship, and modern Spain is the recognized successor of historical imperial Spain. Hold on!!! First, this ship sank in the middle of the night - after fierce fighting with HMS Expedition. Were her colors still flying at the time of the explosion, or had she surrendered to the superior British fleet, as other Spanish ships already had? Second, this took place at a time when the rightful monarch of Spain was in dispute. Two people claimed to be King. Who really was the rightful ruler, and was the ship sailing under his orders at the time? It's not so clear cut after all...