5 ms·

In a way that's part of what makes it so interesting. It's not merely bad, the UX is completely alien. It feels like software designed by another species. There

In a way that's part of what makes it so interesting. It's not merely bad, the UX is completely alien. It feels like software designed by another species. There is loads of software with terrible UX, but most of it is bad in the same boring ways. I see Dwarf Fortress as outsider art: "Outsider art is art made by self-taught or supposedly naïve artists with typically little or no contact with the conventions of the art worlds. In many cases, their work is discovered only after their deaths. Often, outsider art illustrates extreme mental states, unconventional ideas, or elaborate fantasy worlds." Other than the fact that the game was not discovered after his death, every other element of Wikipedia's outsider art intro paragraph fits to a T.

darkteflon 4y ago
Thanks for that. I’ve never heard it before but that’s such a great term - very evocative.
- quirino 4y ago
  Outsider music is also fascinating, this RateYourMusic list gives loads of recommendations: https://rateyourmusic.com/list/KeepPunchin/the-curious-universe-of-outsider-and-incorrect-music/ https://rateyourmusic.com/list/KeepPunchin/the-curious-unive...
- ethbr0 4y ago
  The Throne of the Third Heaven of the Nations’ Millennium General Assembly is a classic example. Found after James Hampton's death in 1964, he'd spent the previous ~14 years meticulously constructing more than 180 separate pieces from discarded material. https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/throne-third-heaven-nations-millennium-general-assembly-9897 https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/throne-third-heaven-natio... http://www.spacesarchives.org/explore/search-the-online-collection/throne-of-the-third-heaven-of-the-nations-millennium-general-assembly/ http://www.spacesarchives.org/explore/search-the-online-coll...
  - darkteflon 4y ago
    Love it. I listened to an interview this morning on the Eurogamer podcast with _Citizen Sleeper_ creator Gareth Damian Martin, who spoke eloquently at length on this sort of thing. He felt (and I agree) that the video game - especially now - is such a great medium for exploring just this kind of thing.
mrmuagi 4y ago
It's got great shortcut usage going for it -- which makes me think of vim/emacs and the learning curves therein.
- justinhj 4y ago
  Yes this is what people miss. When you know the keys it’s a very efficient UI. You have to learn it and it’s not immediately accessible
  - seanhunter 4y ago
    I don't really agree. In and of itself the existence of keystrokes doesn't make the UI efficient. There is still a ton of cognative dissonance and unnecessary friction in DF. Keystrokes that work in one place don't work (or worse, don't work the same way) in another, menu options that are very similar are ordered differently in different places etc. If you learn how to work one aspect of UI (say the millitary menus) you can't transfer that knowledge to working another (say the minecart UX) most of the time. Except sometimes you can, which makes it even more confusing.
  - avereveard 4y ago
    And of you don't know the keys the mnemonics are all there on display. My real gripe with the UI is that it exists in different state of growth, so hospitals are zones but dorms are rooms; I can guess why hospitals were crammed there, likely because the hospital has a stockpile of items and the room menu didn't have the code for that while zones, which handle stockpile, did, but still.
    - db48x 4y ago
      Apparently rooms, zones, and locations have been reunified in the forthcoming release. But yea, since all (well, most) of the keys you can press are shown on the screen when you need them, learning them should not be very difficult. Getting fast and fluid with them takes some practice, but a lot less practice than the violin or piano.

darkteflon 4y ago

Thanks for that. I’ve never heard it before but that’s such a great term - very evocative.

quirino 4y ago
Outsider music is also fascinating, this RateYourMusic list gives loads of recommendations: https://rateyourmusic.com/list/KeepPunchin/the-curious-universe-of-outsider-and-incorrect-music/ https://rateyourmusic.com/list/KeepPunchin/the-curious-unive...
ethbr0 4y ago
The Throne of the Third Heaven of the Nations’ Millennium General Assembly is a classic example. Found after James Hampton's death in 1964, he'd spent the previous ~14 years meticulously constructing more than 180 separate pieces from discarded material. https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/throne-third-heaven-nations-millennium-general-assembly-9897 https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/throne-third-heaven-natio... http://www.spacesarchives.org/explore/search-the-online-collection/throne-of-the-third-heaven-of-the-nations-millennium-general-assembly/ http://www.spacesarchives.org/explore/search-the-online-coll...
- darkteflon 4y ago
  Love it. I listened to an interview this morning on the Eurogamer podcast with _Citizen Sleeper_ creator Gareth Damian Martin, who spoke eloquently at length on this sort of thing. He felt (and I agree) that the video game - especially now - is such a great medium for exploring just this kind of thing.

mrmuagi 4y ago

It's got great shortcut usage going for it -- which makes me think of vim/emacs and the learning curves therein.

justinhj 4y ago
Yes this is what people miss. When you know the keys it’s a very efficient UI. You have to learn it and it’s not immediately accessible
- seanhunter 4y ago
  I don't really agree. In and of itself the existence of keystrokes doesn't make the UI efficient. There is still a ton of cognative dissonance and unnecessary friction in DF. Keystrokes that work in one place don't work (or worse, don't work the same way) in another, menu options that are very similar are ordered differently in different places etc. If you learn how to work one aspect of UI (say the millitary menus) you can't transfer that knowledge to working another (say the minecart UX) most of the time. Except sometimes you can, which makes it even more confusing.
- avereveard 4y ago
  And of you don't know the keys the mnemonics are all there on display. My real gripe with the UI is that it exists in different state of growth, so hospitals are zones but dorms are rooms; I can guess why hospitals were crammed there, likely because the hospital has a stockpile of items and the room menu didn't have the code for that while zones, which handle stockpile, did, but still.
  - db48x 4y ago
    Apparently rooms, zones, and locations have been reunified in the forthcoming release. But yea, since all (well, most) of the keys you can press are shown on the screen when you need them, learning them should not be very difficult. Getting fast and fluid with them takes some practice, but a lot less practice than the violin or piano.