7 ms·

Keeping “wrong people” from voting is essentially half of election “security”. It’s not just coercion risk. It’s the whole chain of custody.

by tomp 4y ago

rootusrootus 4y ago
I meant brown people, but I expect you know that. Give the FEC the power to issue photo ID for voting. Legislate that it is only valid for that purpose and any other use is illegal. Send out census-style teams to track down every citizen and issue them a card, free of charge. Of course, there are all sorts of problems with this that are entirely self-inflicted. Someone will oppose a national ID, even if we already have that. Someone else will point out that the states legally get to make their own voting rules, and they're right. This isn't a problem anyone actually wants to solve. Democrats want to make it easier to vote, Republicans want to make it harder. It's like every other tribal issue, neither side will give an inch because they fear the other side will take a mile.
- faddypaddy34 4y ago
  Voter id laws have been shown to increase voter turn out in the United States. Most states give free IDs for voting. It is a federal law that you must show an ID to register. Stop with this misinformed nonsense that there is a crazy conspiracy to keep "brown" people from voting. Maybe once yes but not for awhile.
  - Izkata 4y ago
    Related, this funny/sad video from 6 years ago about actually asking black people about getting IDs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JGmKHrWKMQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JGmKHrWKMQ (4 minutes long) Summary: They pretty much all responded "whoever thinks we don't have / can't get IDs is ignorant and probably a bit racist".
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      Just like white people are authoritative about other white people, if we ask black people for the truth they must be right. Or, you know, not. - 13% of Blacks, 10% of Hispanics, but only 5 percent of Whites lack photographic identification. - 12% of adults living in a household with less than $25,000 annual income lack photo ID, compared to just 2 percent in households with over $150,000 annual income. - 15 percent of 17-20 year olds lack photo ID, and 11 percent of those ages 21-24 lack photo ID. So yeah, ID requirements are not a half bad way to skew election results in your favor. And consider for a moment just how strong an advantage Republicans have in the house of representatives these days compared to how weak their actual number of represented voters is. All the little efforts absolutely add up to real results.
      - crabbycrab 4y ago
        How many of those 12-15% are actually unable to get an ID as opposed to "can't be bothered/don't need it"? An ID requirement would get some of those to get one - if they wanted to vote. And how does the voter turnout look for those groups anyway? The only people who might be impacted negatively by ID requirement are those unable (for whatever reason? Why can't there be an easy way to get an ID in the first place?) and actually wanting to vote.
        Izkata 4y ago
        I don't know about those groups specifically, but overall turnout is typically around 60% for presidential elections and 40% for midterm elections, for every election since at least 2000. http://www.electproject.org/home/voter-turnout/voter-turnout-data http://www.electproject.org/home/voter-turnout/voter-turnout...
      - philwelch 4y ago
        Photo ID is required in the United States in order to work (Form I-9), obtain housing, drive a car, buy alcohol or tobacco, enter age-restricted venues, purchase firearms, drive a car, go through airport security, and in general, to participate in society. And one of the things I’ve listed is an enumerated constitutional right. So I don’t think it’s an unreasonable requirement for voting. Someone who doesn’t participate in society to such a degree that they already don’t need ID is probably unlikely to be voting in the first place, and it’s somewhat dubious IMO to bend over backwards to specifically court such voters.
- JoBrad 4y ago
  Please - we don’t need another single-purpose ID card. Why not just make a single ID card that all privileges that are recognized in all 50 states can be added to? Driver’s license classes, concealed carry, voting, security clearance, donor preferences, etc. everyone has to get a new one every 4 years, and there’s an electronic record for verification of basic info like photo and name when internet access is available.
  - johnny22 4y ago
    because not enough americans seem to want it.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Because a narrowly focused voter ID card is more difficult for naysayers to rebut, because they are themselves claiming we need exactly that. I support a real national ID card myself.
    - mulmen 4y ago
      I oppose Voter IDs because I don’t think we need them. I’m on the fence with a National ID because I’m concerned it would have the same problems as Voter ID.
  - claytongulick 4y ago
    Because this is not a power granted to the federal government, it is reserved for the states. IANAL, but I believe that something like this would require a constitutional amendment, unless it could be squeezed in under the umbrella of the ICC like most other federal overreach laws.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Because this is not a power granted to the federal government, it is reserved for the states. If one agrees that this is true, that's not an answer to the question of why not do it; it does affect the mechanics—either a Constitutional Amendment (to do it federally) or a fifty-state compact (do it as a coordinated state-ID system for all state purposes, which is arguably closer to what was described) would be available mechanisms. “The Constitution doesn't currently allow the federal government to do it” is not an answer to “why not do this in a centrally coordinated way”.
- rayiner 4y ago
  As a card carrying “brown person” I’m confused by your argument. I’ve never seen anyone checking skin color at the door at the DMV.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    I have seen your posts on HN, I don't buy that you're actually confused. Overt racism at the door to the DMV is not at all how you disenfranchise a group of citizens, especially in modern times. You make sure DMVs in predominantly black neighborhoods have short hours at times most inconvenient, you make sure polling places are understaffed and overbooked, things like that. It insulates you against direct evidence but still achieves your goal.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      This comment would be much better without the first sentence.
    - xyzzyz 4y ago
      > You make sure DMVs in predominantly black neighborhoods have short hours at times most inconvenient, you make sure polling places are understaffed and overbooked, things like that. Wow, I didn’t know I live in a black neighborhood!
    - rayiner 4y ago
      I notice you switched from “brown” to “black” here. Was the switch substantive? But the DMV thing sounds like a QAnon-style conspiracy theory.
      - shadowgovt 4y ago
        In normal times, I would agree with the conspiracy-like-thinking concern. Sadly, these are not normal times. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-01/alabama-closes-dmv-offices-a-year-after-voter-id-law-kicks-in https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-01/alabama-c... When one considers action such as this in light of the GOP being caught red-handed attempting to shape the census questions to deprive states of Congressional representation (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/us/census-citizenship-question-hofeller.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/us/census-citizenship-que...), it becomes, at the very least, suspicious. For at least a short time (politically speaking, maybe half a generation), the GOP has lost the benefit of the doubt regarding its actions being race-neutral and some healthy skepticism is justified.

Keeping “wrong people” from voting is essentially half of election “security”. It’s not just coercion risk. It’s the whole chain of custody.

by tomp 4y ago

Keeping “wrong people” from voting is essentially half of election “security”. It’s not just coercion risk. It’s the whole chain of custody.

rootusrootus 4y ago

I meant brown people, but I expect you know that. Give the FEC the power to issue photo ID for voting. Legislate that it is only valid for that purpose and any other use is illegal. Send out census-style teams to track down every citizen and issue them a card, free of charge. Of course, there are all sorts of problems with this that are entirely self-inflicted. Someone will oppose a national ID, even if we already have that. Someone else will point out that the states legally get to make their own voting rules, and they're right. This isn't a problem anyone actually wants to solve. Democrats want to make it easier to vote, Republicans want to make it harder. It's like every other tribal issue, neither side will give an inch because they fear the other side will take a mile.

faddypaddy34 4y ago
Voter id laws have been shown to increase voter turn out in the United States. Most states give free IDs for voting. It is a federal law that you must show an ID to register. Stop with this misinformed nonsense that there is a crazy conspiracy to keep "brown" people from voting. Maybe once yes but not for awhile.
- Izkata 4y ago
  Related, this funny/sad video from 6 years ago about actually asking black people about getting IDs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JGmKHrWKMQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JGmKHrWKMQ (4 minutes long) Summary: They pretty much all responded "whoever thinks we don't have / can't get IDs is ignorant and probably a bit racist".
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Just like white people are authoritative about other white people, if we ask black people for the truth they must be right. Or, you know, not. - 13% of Blacks, 10% of Hispanics, but only 5 percent of Whites lack photographic identification. - 12% of adults living in a household with less than $25,000 annual income lack photo ID, compared to just 2 percent in households with over $150,000 annual income. - 15 percent of 17-20 year olds lack photo ID, and 11 percent of those ages 21-24 lack photo ID. So yeah, ID requirements are not a half bad way to skew election results in your favor. And consider for a moment just how strong an advantage Republicans have in the house of representatives these days compared to how weak their actual number of represented voters is. All the little efforts absolutely add up to real results.
    - crabbycrab 4y ago
      How many of those 12-15% are actually unable to get an ID as opposed to "can't be bothered/don't need it"? An ID requirement would get some of those to get one - if they wanted to vote. And how does the voter turnout look for those groups anyway? The only people who might be impacted negatively by ID requirement are those unable (for whatever reason? Why can't there be an easy way to get an ID in the first place?) and actually wanting to vote.
      - Izkata 4y ago
        I don't know about those groups specifically, but overall turnout is typically around 60% for presidential elections and 40% for midterm elections, for every election since at least 2000. http://www.electproject.org/home/voter-turnout/voter-turnout-data http://www.electproject.org/home/voter-turnout/voter-turnout...
    - philwelch 4y ago
      Photo ID is required in the United States in order to work (Form I-9), obtain housing, drive a car, buy alcohol or tobacco, enter age-restricted venues, purchase firearms, drive a car, go through airport security, and in general, to participate in society. And one of the things I’ve listed is an enumerated constitutional right. So I don’t think it’s an unreasonable requirement for voting. Someone who doesn’t participate in society to such a degree that they already don’t need ID is probably unlikely to be voting in the first place, and it’s somewhat dubious IMO to bend over backwards to specifically court such voters.
JoBrad 4y ago
Please - we don’t need another single-purpose ID card. Why not just make a single ID card that all privileges that are recognized in all 50 states can be added to? Driver’s license classes, concealed carry, voting, security clearance, donor preferences, etc. everyone has to get a new one every 4 years, and there’s an electronic record for verification of basic info like photo and name when internet access is available.
- johnny22 4y ago
  because not enough americans seem to want it.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Because a narrowly focused voter ID card is more difficult for naysayers to rebut, because they are themselves claiming we need exactly that. I support a real national ID card myself.
  - mulmen 4y ago
    I oppose Voter IDs because I don’t think we need them. I’m on the fence with a National ID because I’m concerned it would have the same problems as Voter ID.
- claytongulick 4y ago
  Because this is not a power granted to the federal government, it is reserved for the states. IANAL, but I believe that something like this would require a constitutional amendment, unless it could be squeezed in under the umbrella of the ICC like most other federal overreach laws.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Because this is not a power granted to the federal government, it is reserved for the states. If one agrees that this is true, that's not an answer to the question of why not do it; it does affect the mechanics—either a Constitutional Amendment (to do it federally) or a fifty-state compact (do it as a coordinated state-ID system for all state purposes, which is arguably closer to what was described) would be available mechanisms. “The Constitution doesn't currently allow the federal government to do it” is not an answer to “why not do this in a centrally coordinated way”.
rayiner 4y ago
As a card carrying “brown person” I’m confused by your argument. I’ve never seen anyone checking skin color at the door at the DMV.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I have seen your posts on HN, I don't buy that you're actually confused. Overt racism at the door to the DMV is not at all how you disenfranchise a group of citizens, especially in modern times. You make sure DMVs in predominantly black neighborhoods have short hours at times most inconvenient, you make sure polling places are understaffed and overbooked, things like that. It insulates you against direct evidence but still achieves your goal.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    This comment would be much better without the first sentence.
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    > You make sure DMVs in predominantly black neighborhoods have short hours at times most inconvenient, you make sure polling places are understaffed and overbooked, things like that. Wow, I didn’t know I live in a black neighborhood!
  - rayiner 4y ago
    I notice you switched from “brown” to “black” here. Was the switch substantive? But the DMV thing sounds like a QAnon-style conspiracy theory.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      In normal times, I would agree with the conspiracy-like-thinking concern. Sadly, these are not normal times. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-01/alabama-closes-dmv-offices-a-year-after-voter-id-law-kicks-in https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-01/alabama-c... When one considers action such as this in light of the GOP being caught red-handed attempting to shape the census questions to deprive states of Congressional representation (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/us/census-citizenship-question-hofeller.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/us/census-citizenship-que...), it becomes, at the very least, suspicious. For at least a short time (politically speaking, maybe half a generation), the GOP has lost the benefit of the doubt regarding its actions being race-neutral and some healthy skepticism is justified.