8 ms·

This is a very strange piece of research because they admit they only observed the dogs during daytime, but they've still made broad statements claiming the dog

This is a very strange piece of research because they admit they only observed the dogs during daytime, but they've still made broad statements claiming the dogs exhibit friendly and docile behavior at all times - despite a reputation for aggression that the researchers casually dismiss. The reality is that street dogs in India are often more active, and sometimes far more aggressive, at nighttime. They often rest quietly during the day to avoid suffering from the extreme heat

ghayes 4y ago
Yeah the observation period is very limited for the claims being made. It seems that adding a tracking device and/or camera could lead to significantly stronger conclusions, which surely has been accomplished by other researchers.
- rob74 4y ago
  Adding a tracking device and/or camera is also much more expensive than just sending some students out to look at some dogs however...
entropie 4y ago
> They often rest quietly during the day to avoid suffering from the extreme heat As most predators do in hot climate. Its a pretty complex topic and its good that some research is done. Wolfs hunt mostly during night time too, but dogs are not wolfs and despite research from like the 80s where dog behaviour was derived from wolf studies (that actually were mostly done with wolfs in zoos and national parks (Yellowstone was pretty big I think) we know now that these studies fail to explain real wolf behaviour). We just began to understand how wolfs interact with each other in packs in free nature and its fairly complex. The entire 90s dog trainer used studies about wolfs to explain behaviour and train dogs, often the word dominance is used and that you have to be the "pack leader" for your dog to make him follow your "orders". Which is plain wrong on many levels but would go to far now. Why do I talk about wolfs? Well, dogs that grew up with humans and get lost (in nature) are known to change behaviour very fast. (It mainly depends on the breed and ofc. character). They begin to act more like wolves again to the point where they develop shyness in front of people and it has happened that they no longer let themselves be called by their original owner and also have not accepted food from them. It can be very difficult to get them used to humans again. Obviously, this must be different for dogs that live in urban environments without their/a owner. What is probably not different is that pack structures develop but quite rarely in intra-species "serious" conflicts because they don't need to fight over resources. Most animals fight only if really necessary because even a won fight can lead to death because of injuries.
- mountain_peak 4y ago
  > dogs that grew up with humans and get lost (in nature) are known to change behaviour very fast This is especially true in Northern Canada, where abandoned and neglected pets have (for decades) formed roaming packs that, on average, kill one person per year - usually a child - and leave many others with disfiguring injuries. [0] (An old reference since media has generally pulled way back on these stories, but recent firsthand accounts indicate that there's still an issue.) Many communities have an annual cull to keep the stray/pack population at bay, but residents from 'southern' cities travel north to adopt and rehabilitate the animals - usually with limited success. The remoteness and unpopularity of the subject unfortunately hasn't brought about many solutions for the affected communities, and fear even more people abandoning their pets as they return to work may exacerbate the issue. [0] https://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic/2014/10/17/struggle-to-control-dangerous-stray-dogs-across-northern-canada/ https://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic/2014/10/17/struggle-...
rob74 4y ago
...unless they're infected with rabies, in which case they might also be aggressive during the day. I'm also puzzled by what this research wants to prove. That it's Ok to have a large uncontrolled population of feral dogs? No, it's not...
- pvaldes 4y ago
  The problem with rabies is lack of political will. Vaccinate the feral dogs. They will make a queue waging the tail, come to you and eat the vaccine from your own hands in 5 seconds if you show half a sausage. Save lottamoney in healthcare later and human lives. End of the problem. Vote me. Or if you are more ambitious, caught them, mark the vaccinated dogs with a tatto or a ear tag, and give the poochie the whole sausage before releasing it again at their home, so people can know what dog interactions are safer and what need more care. Thus you avoid losing money vaccinating two times the same dog. "should kill all the dogs because rabies" is stupid. Ecology models predict that that would spread faster the rabies and would made people less safe in that sense. You want territorial animals remaining in their territory.
  - srean 4y ago
    Where I stay, the strays are not only vaccinated but also neutered regularly. All this is not done by the municipal corporation but by kindhearted locals. Unfortunately breeders dump unwanted puppies and unproductive adults on the street. I see a lot of abandoned (by humans) pups too.
    - cheese_goddess 4y ago
      I don't understand how neutering an animal is considered "kindhearted". The fact that this is such a common idea suggests to me that even people who believe they care about animals in truth treat animals as objects, without any rights or personal interests other than what the person thinks are the animal's interests. We don't do that kind of thing to humans anymore, neuter them for their own good and the good of their descenants. Why do we do it to animals?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
codeisawesome 4y ago
Street dogs run around in PACKS in so many Indian cities and even the beaches in Goa. They will absolutely attack a vulnerable target as well - which for example is you going for your morning walk at dawn, with few / no other people around. Terrifying stuff. I’ve also read news stories of a pack of feral urban pigs running down and murdering an old lady in India.
- 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 4y ago
  Animals can't 'murder' as they lack moral agency [1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_trial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_trial
  - tpoacher 4y ago
    Fine. Assassinate then. /s
  - codeisawesome 4y ago
    TIL… also, an example in that page is also about a set of pigs killing a child, but this time from 15th century Europe!
mike_d 4y ago
Something I learned from our local shelter: rescued street dogs in urban environments tend to be pretty friendly. Non-aggressive dogs get regularly fed by kind hearted people, aggressive dogs don't and have to compete for scraps with other animals.
srean 4y ago
From what I have seen the dogs are aggressive when (a) they are protecting their litter and/or (b) bikers regularly spook them by zipping past them very close at high speed and hitting them. A-priori they cant gauge if anyone is a threat to them or not. However, a clear demonstration that you are not a threat to them and that you are relaxed enough to hold your own ground diffuses the tension. They are more prone to territorial barking at night, but that's them being good watch-dogs. I have a rescue from the streets. He is paranoid about bikes and cars coming close.

ghayes 4y ago

Yeah the observation period is very limited for the claims being made. It seems that adding a tracking device and/or camera could lead to significantly stronger conclusions, which surely has been accomplished by other researchers.

rob74 4y ago
Adding a tracking device and/or camera is also much more expensive than just sending some students out to look at some dogs however...

entropie 4y ago

> They often rest quietly during the day to avoid suffering from the extreme heat As most predators do in hot climate. Its a pretty complex topic and its good that some research is done. Wolfs hunt mostly during night time too, but dogs are not wolfs and despite research from like the 80s where dog behaviour was derived from wolf studies (that actually were mostly done with wolfs in zoos and national parks (Yellowstone was pretty big I think) we know now that these studies fail to explain real wolf behaviour). We just began to understand how wolfs interact with each other in packs in free nature and its fairly complex. The entire 90s dog trainer used studies about wolfs to explain behaviour and train dogs, often the word dominance is used and that you have to be the "pack leader" for your dog to make him follow your "orders". Which is plain wrong on many levels but would go to far now. Why do I talk about wolfs? Well, dogs that grew up with humans and get lost (in nature) are known to change behaviour very fast. (It mainly depends on the breed and ofc. character). They begin to act more like wolves again to the point where they develop shyness in front of people and it has happened that they no longer let themselves be called by their original owner and also have not accepted food from them. It can be very difficult to get them used to humans again. Obviously, this must be different for dogs that live in urban environments without their/a owner. What is probably not different is that pack structures develop but quite rarely in intra-species "serious" conflicts because they don't need to fight over resources. Most animals fight only if really necessary because even a won fight can lead to death because of injuries.

mountain_peak 4y ago
> dogs that grew up with humans and get lost (in nature) are known to change behaviour very fast This is especially true in Northern Canada, where abandoned and neglected pets have (for decades) formed roaming packs that, on average, kill one person per year - usually a child - and leave many others with disfiguring injuries. [0] (An old reference since media has generally pulled way back on these stories, but recent firsthand accounts indicate that there's still an issue.) Many communities have an annual cull to keep the stray/pack population at bay, but residents from 'southern' cities travel north to adopt and rehabilitate the animals - usually with limited success. The remoteness and unpopularity of the subject unfortunately hasn't brought about many solutions for the affected communities, and fear even more people abandoning their pets as they return to work may exacerbate the issue. [0] https://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic/2014/10/17/struggle-to-control-dangerous-stray-dogs-across-northern-canada/ https://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic/2014/10/17/struggle-...

rob74 4y ago

...unless they're infected with rabies, in which case they might also be aggressive during the day. I'm also puzzled by what this research wants to prove. That it's Ok to have a large uncontrolled population of feral dogs? No, it's not...

pvaldes 4y ago
The problem with rabies is lack of political will. Vaccinate the feral dogs. They will make a queue waging the tail, come to you and eat the vaccine from your own hands in 5 seconds if you show half a sausage. Save lottamoney in healthcare later and human lives. End of the problem. Vote me. Or if you are more ambitious, caught them, mark the vaccinated dogs with a tatto or a ear tag, and give the poochie the whole sausage before releasing it again at their home, so people can know what dog interactions are safer and what need more care. Thus you avoid losing money vaccinating two times the same dog. "should kill all the dogs because rabies" is stupid. Ecology models predict that that would spread faster the rabies and would made people less safe in that sense. You want territorial animals remaining in their territory.
- srean 4y ago
  Where I stay, the strays are not only vaccinated but also neutered regularly. All this is not done by the municipal corporation but by kindhearted locals. Unfortunately breeders dump unwanted puppies and unproductive adults on the street. I see a lot of abandoned (by humans) pups too.
  - cheese_goddess 4y ago
    I don't understand how neutering an animal is considered "kindhearted". The fact that this is such a common idea suggests to me that even people who believe they care about animals in truth treat animals as objects, without any rights or personal interests other than what the person thinks are the animal's interests. We don't do that kind of thing to humans anymore, neuter them for their own good and the good of their descenants. Why do we do it to animals?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

codeisawesome 4y ago

Street dogs run around in PACKS in so many Indian cities and even the beaches in Goa. They will absolutely attack a vulnerable target as well - which for example is you going for your morning walk at dawn, with few / no other people around. Terrifying stuff. I’ve also read news stories of a pack of feral urban pigs running down and murdering an old lady in India.

6LLvveMx2koXfwn 4y ago
Animals can't 'murder' as they lack moral agency [1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_trial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_trial
- tpoacher 4y ago
  Fine. Assassinate then. /s
- codeisawesome 4y ago
  TIL… also, an example in that page is also about a set of pigs killing a child, but this time from 15th century Europe!

mike_d 4y ago

Something I learned from our local shelter: rescued street dogs in urban environments tend to be pretty friendly. Non-aggressive dogs get regularly fed by kind hearted people, aggressive dogs don't and have to compete for scraps with other animals.

srean 4y ago

From what I have seen the dogs are aggressive when (a) they are protecting their litter and/or (b) bikers regularly spook them by zipping past them very close at high speed and hitting them. A-priori they cant gauge if anyone is a threat to them or not. However, a clear demonstration that you are not a threat to them and that you are relaxed enough to hold your own ground diffuses the tension. They are more prone to territorial barking at night, but that's them being good watch-dogs. I have a rescue from the streets. He is paranoid about bikes and cars coming close.