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Most other democratic countries (1) require photo IDs for voting, and (2) don’t support postal voting at scale. Either (1) or (2) not being true makes election

by tomp 4y ago

Most other democratic countries (1) require photo IDs for voting, and (2) don’t support postal voting at scale. Either (1) or (2) not being true makes elections way less secure.

hef19898 4y ago
Germany has pretty liberal mail im voting, we had a bunch electuons during Covid with obvious increases of mail in voting. And we don't need IDs. We do have automatic and central "voter registration" (as basis to get the mandatory ID among other things).
- rayiner 4y ago
  Saying that Germany doesn’t have voter IDs is technically true but a bit misleading. In the US, registering to vote is super easy and can be done online in most states. In Germany, the residency registration that’s also used for voting requires showing up in person within a month of moving. The German system would be much more onerous if implemented in America than one tied to driver’s licenses that virtually everyone in America has already.
  - diffeomorphism 4y ago
    Don't you also have to update your driver's license when moving? Then what is more onerous about it? > requires showing up in person within a month of moving Not during covid by the way. I moved in 2020 and could simply send in the documents by email. Then some time later I had to briefly drop by to get a stamp for my ID, but that was like 5 minutes. > registering to vote is super easy and can be done online in most states That is nice, but not having to register at all is even easier.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      You don’t have to update your driver’s license unless you permanently move from one state to another, and even then not really. It won’t stop working. Sure, lots of things were relaxed during the pandemic. But you have to register in person normally, correct?
      - hef19898 4y ago
        Unless you change your primary residency you don't have to do anything in Germany. And registering a secondary residency has tax implications but none regarding voting. And why do think your German ID card won't work anymore if the address on it is wrong?
        rayiner 4y ago
        https://www.bmi.bund.de/EN/topics/administrative-reform/registration/registration-node.html https://www.bmi.bund.de/EN/topics/administrative-reform/regi... > Anyone who moves into a residence in Germany must register within two weeks of moving in. To register, you have to go to the registration authority of your municipality and present a valid ID card, passport or passport substitute document and a certificate issued by the person providing the residence. > Persons moving abroad must deregister with the registration authority of their municipality, while those moving within Germany only have to register their new residence. It is not necessary to deregister the former residence. > Both Germans and foreigners are required to register. Violations of the registration re-quirement are subject to fines. I didn’t say the German ID card would stop working. But as I understand it, voting is based on your registered address, which must be current to vote, and that residency registration requires showing up in person. The point is that voting in Germany requires showing up to a registration office with documents every time you move, which is more onerous than presenting an ID to vote in the US. Both voter registration and renewing a driver’s license or changing your address on your license can be done completely online in most states. I’ve only gone in person to deal with my driver’s license twice in my life (I’m almost 40), despite moving almost a dozen times. Once when I got my license as a teenager, and once when I changed my residency permanently from Virginia to Maryland.
      - diffeomorphism 4y ago
        > But you have to register in person. Partially. You can fill out and send all documents online or by mail -- at least in the city I moved to. Then once everything is done you need to make an appointment to stop by and pick up your address sticker and certificate. Having some in person part for ID things seems unavoidable, but nothing onerous.
rootusrootus 4y ago
If the US would stop using photo IDs as a bludgeon to keep "the wrong people" from voting, everyone could get on board with requiring it. That has always been the real blocker. I do like postal mail. I've yet to see a convincing argument that the coercion risk is substantial enough to offset the other benefits. Voting slowly at my living room table is awesome.
- tomp 4y ago
  Keeping “wrong people” from voting is essentially half of election “security”. It’s not just coercion risk. It’s the whole chain of custody.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    I meant brown people, but I expect you know that. Give the FEC the power to issue photo ID for voting. Legislate that it is only valid for that purpose and any other use is illegal. Send out census-style teams to track down every citizen and issue them a card, free of charge. Of course, there are all sorts of problems with this that are entirely self-inflicted. Someone will oppose a national ID, even if we already have that. Someone else will point out that the states legally get to make their own voting rules, and they're right. This isn't a problem anyone actually wants to solve. Democrats want to make it easier to vote, Republicans want to make it harder. It's like every other tribal issue, neither side will give an inch because they fear the other side will take a mile.
    - faddypaddy34 4y ago
      Voter id laws have been shown to increase voter turn out in the United States. Most states give free IDs for voting. It is a federal law that you must show an ID to register. Stop with this misinformed nonsense that there is a crazy conspiracy to keep "brown" people from voting. Maybe once yes but not for awhile.
      - Izkata 4y ago
        Related, this funny/sad video from 6 years ago about actually asking black people about getting IDs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JGmKHrWKMQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JGmKHrWKMQ (4 minutes long) Summary: They pretty much all responded "whoever thinks we don't have / can't get IDs is ignorant and probably a bit racist".

by tomp 4y ago

Most other democratic countries (1) require photo IDs for voting, and (2) don’t support postal voting at scale. Either (1) or (2) not being true makes elections way less secure.

hef19898 4y ago

Germany has pretty liberal mail im voting, we had a bunch electuons during Covid with obvious increases of mail in voting. And we don't need IDs. We do have automatic and central "voter registration" (as basis to get the mandatory ID among other things).

rayiner 4y ago
Saying that Germany doesn’t have voter IDs is technically true but a bit misleading. In the US, registering to vote is super easy and can be done online in most states. In Germany, the residency registration that’s also used for voting requires showing up in person within a month of moving. The German system would be much more onerous if implemented in America than one tied to driver’s licenses that virtually everyone in America has already.
- diffeomorphism 4y ago
  Don't you also have to update your driver's license when moving? Then what is more onerous about it? > requires showing up in person within a month of moving Not during covid by the way. I moved in 2020 and could simply send in the documents by email. Then some time later I had to briefly drop by to get a stamp for my ID, but that was like 5 minutes. > registering to vote is super easy and can be done online in most states That is nice, but not having to register at all is even easier.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    You don’t have to update your driver’s license unless you permanently move from one state to another, and even then not really. It won’t stop working. Sure, lots of things were relaxed during the pandemic. But you have to register in person normally, correct?
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Unless you change your primary residency you don't have to do anything in Germany. And registering a secondary residency has tax implications but none regarding voting. And why do think your German ID card won't work anymore if the address on it is wrong?
      - rayiner 4y ago
        https://www.bmi.bund.de/EN/topics/administrative-reform/registration/registration-node.html https://www.bmi.bund.de/EN/topics/administrative-reform/regi... > Anyone who moves into a residence in Germany must register within two weeks of moving in. To register, you have to go to the registration authority of your municipality and present a valid ID card, passport or passport substitute document and a certificate issued by the person providing the residence. > Persons moving abroad must deregister with the registration authority of their municipality, while those moving within Germany only have to register their new residence. It is not necessary to deregister the former residence. > Both Germans and foreigners are required to register. Violations of the registration re-quirement are subject to fines. I didn’t say the German ID card would stop working. But as I understand it, voting is based on your registered address, which must be current to vote, and that residency registration requires showing up in person. The point is that voting in Germany requires showing up to a registration office with documents every time you move, which is more onerous than presenting an ID to vote in the US. Both voter registration and renewing a driver’s license or changing your address on your license can be done completely online in most states. I’ve only gone in person to deal with my driver’s license twice in my life (I’m almost 40), despite moving almost a dozen times. Once when I got my license as a teenager, and once when I changed my residency permanently from Virginia to Maryland.
    - diffeomorphism 4y ago
      > But you have to register in person. Partially. You can fill out and send all documents online or by mail -- at least in the city I moved to. Then once everything is done you need to make an appointment to stop by and pick up your address sticker and certificate. Having some in person part for ID things seems unavoidable, but nothing onerous.

rootusrootus 4y ago

If the US would stop using photo IDs as a bludgeon to keep "the wrong people" from voting, everyone could get on board with requiring it. That has always been the real blocker. I do like postal mail. I've yet to see a convincing argument that the coercion risk is substantial enough to offset the other benefits. Voting slowly at my living room table is awesome.

tomp 4y ago
Keeping “wrong people” from voting is essentially half of election “security”. It’s not just coercion risk. It’s the whole chain of custody.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I meant brown people, but I expect you know that. Give the FEC the power to issue photo ID for voting. Legislate that it is only valid for that purpose and any other use is illegal. Send out census-style teams to track down every citizen and issue them a card, free of charge. Of course, there are all sorts of problems with this that are entirely self-inflicted. Someone will oppose a national ID, even if we already have that. Someone else will point out that the states legally get to make their own voting rules, and they're right. This isn't a problem anyone actually wants to solve. Democrats want to make it easier to vote, Republicans want to make it harder. It's like every other tribal issue, neither side will give an inch because they fear the other side will take a mile.
  - faddypaddy34 4y ago
    Voter id laws have been shown to increase voter turn out in the United States. Most states give free IDs for voting. It is a federal law that you must show an ID to register. Stop with this misinformed nonsense that there is a crazy conspiracy to keep "brown" people from voting. Maybe once yes but not for awhile.
    - Izkata 4y ago
      Related, this funny/sad video from 6 years ago about actually asking black people about getting IDs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JGmKHrWKMQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JGmKHrWKMQ (4 minutes long) Summary: They pretty much all responded "whoever thinks we don't have / can't get IDs is ignorant and probably a bit racist".