4 ms·

Manderin has non-gendered pronouns referring to a person (something missing in English), and a wealth of words referring to family relations relative to the per

by hosh 4y ago

Manderin has non-gendered pronouns referring to a person (something missing in English), and a wealth of words referring to family relations relative to the person speaking. It's rude for someone to refer to an older relation by name, and so it's always done by the relational words. There are special terms for extended relations on the father's side of the family. It is particularly rude to refer to a family member by the generic, non-gendered pronoun, because that indicates the speaker does not have any relation with that person at all. These words encourages a more collectivist rather than an individual mindset with biases based on the person's seniority. That can be good and bad. For example, there's less room for identity politics in day-to-day speech, and in turn, you're reminded in detail of relations and roles. Korean has something similar. South Korea had to retrain their airline pilots to speak in English during flight operations because those very same relational words do not allow for flow of critical information and contributed towards crashes.

googlryas 4y ago
> non-gendered pronouns referring to a person (something missing in English) "they"? People pushing for "they/them" pronoun acceptance are always quick to point out "singular they" (even though the usage is quite contextual and limited).
- hosh 4y ago
  RMS tried to promote the use of “perse”, “per”, derived from “person”. As with anything, accepted usage depends on if it becomes viral.
kodah 4y ago
> Manderin has non-gendered pronouns referring to a person (something missing in English) English actually has a complicated gender neutrality history. For instance, it used to be that only women had a specific pronoun while what we regard today as male pronouns used to be neutral [1]. We also have "they"/"them" which have been historically baked into the language for these purposes. 1: https://las.illinois.edu/news/2020-01-29/tracing-history-gender-neutral-pronouns https://las.illinois.edu/news/2020-01-29/tracing-history-gen...
- hosh 4y ago
  Yeah. I forgot that written Chinese has 他 as the generic and 她 as the gendered one specific for women. In Mandarin, 他 and 她 are both pronounced the same.
  - sowbug 4y ago
    Also 它 and 牠.
- usrn 4y ago
  They/them is only plural. It works ok in writing but IMO it sounds really weird to use it in casual conversation. I used to agree with the APA style guide that you should just use them but lately I've been having second thoughts.
  - tessierashpool 4y ago
    this is a common misconception, but it isn't true, and it hasn't been true since the days of Shakespeare, who used they/them as a singular. Jane Austen did the same thing. I don't know who misinformed you on this topic, but I am willing to bet it was not a writer of that caliber. I think we can safely consider Shakespeare and Austen to be experts in the English language.
    - sitharus 4y ago
      I wouldn't consider them experts on the language, since English is not a prescriptive language. However, they do provide good historical references on use of words to avoid the ridiculous 'you can't use that word like that' arguments. If we're going to be prescriptive about use of 'they' as a definite pronoun we may as well complain about how particular and peculiar swapped meanings in common vernacular.
      - dotancohen 4y ago
        > English is not a prescriptive language Do you mean that there is no single body, like the French have, directing the usage of the language? I would consider "prescriptive / descriptive" to be properties of a dictionary, but not properties of the language itself. I'm not a subject matter expert so I'm not contradicting you, rather I'm asking.
mint2 4y ago
> These words encourages a more collectivist rather than an individual mindset with biases based on the person's seniority I don’t follow how very specific relational pronouns leads equality. Explain.
- akdor1154 4y ago
  The unempathetic programmer in me says it prevents bikeshedding and the subsequent emotionally charged conflict. (The lefty liberal in me says don't be a cunt to people)
  - mint2 4y ago
    We’ll thats certainly not the “lefty liberal” shining through with that gratuitous use use of derogatory terms for female anatomy as an insult in that comment.
    - gsinclair 4y ago
      You’re not from Australia, I see.
- hosh 4y ago
  I don’t claim that it leads to equality. That’s a problematic assertion. I said that the relational words in Mandarin leads to (and enforces) a collectivist rather than than individualist mindset. There is less semantics about identity and more about relations. Identity is a reference to a self, whereas relational words refer to how a self relates to another self. The emphasis is on the relation — and the social expectations, responsibilities, and priveledges of that relation, and less on the identity of either the speaker or the person the speaker refers to. So for example, I wouldn’t say “Bob”. I’d say “my da-ge” (big older brother). When I use the latter in conversations with other people, those people knows I have this relation I can lean on. When referring to younger siblings, I might not even use their names even if I could do so without being rude. I might say to someone else, “my xiao-de”, my little brother, making an implicit claim that this person is family, under my protection. Whether the kid is worthy of such protection, whether I personally want to or not, is secondary that there is a relation and there are expectations that goes with it.
mediumdeviation 4y ago
> Manderin has non-gendered pronouns referring to a person That's only when spoken, because 他 and 她 are homophones, no? Otherwise when written it is almost exactly the same as English in how pronouns are gendered with he/she/it.
- contingencies 4y ago
  Correct

by hosh 4y ago

googlryas 4y ago

> non-gendered pronouns referring to a person (something missing in English) "they"? People pushing for "they/them" pronoun acceptance are always quick to point out "singular they" (even though the usage is quite contextual and limited).

hosh 4y ago
RMS tried to promote the use of “perse”, “per”, derived from “person”. As with anything, accepted usage depends on if it becomes viral.

kodah 4y ago

> Manderin has non-gendered pronouns referring to a person (something missing in English) English actually has a complicated gender neutrality history. For instance, it used to be that only women had a specific pronoun while what we regard today as male pronouns used to be neutral [1]. We also have "they"/"them" which have been historically baked into the language for these purposes. 1: https://las.illinois.edu/news/2020-01-29/tracing-history-gender-neutral-pronouns https://las.illinois.edu/news/2020-01-29/tracing-history-gen...

hosh 4y ago
Yeah. I forgot that written Chinese has 他 as the generic and 她 as the gendered one specific for women. In Mandarin, 他 and 她 are both pronounced the same.
- sowbug 4y ago
  Also 它 and 牠.
usrn 4y ago
They/them is only plural. It works ok in writing but IMO it sounds really weird to use it in casual conversation. I used to agree with the APA style guide that you should just use them but lately I've been having second thoughts.
- tessierashpool 4y ago
  this is a common misconception, but it isn't true, and it hasn't been true since the days of Shakespeare, who used they/them as a singular. Jane Austen did the same thing. I don't know who misinformed you on this topic, but I am willing to bet it was not a writer of that caliber. I think we can safely consider Shakespeare and Austen to be experts in the English language.
  - sitharus 4y ago
    I wouldn't consider them experts on the language, since English is not a prescriptive language. However, they do provide good historical references on use of words to avoid the ridiculous 'you can't use that word like that' arguments. If we're going to be prescriptive about use of 'they' as a definite pronoun we may as well complain about how particular and peculiar swapped meanings in common vernacular.
    - dotancohen 4y ago
      > English is not a prescriptive language Do you mean that there is no single body, like the French have, directing the usage of the language? I would consider "prescriptive / descriptive" to be properties of a dictionary, but not properties of the language itself. I'm not a subject matter expert so I'm not contradicting you, rather I'm asking.

mint2 4y ago

> These words encourages a more collectivist rather than an individual mindset with biases based on the person's seniority I don’t follow how very specific relational pronouns leads equality. Explain.

akdor1154 4y ago
The unempathetic programmer in me says it prevents bikeshedding and the subsequent emotionally charged conflict. (The lefty liberal in me says don't be a cunt to people)
- mint2 4y ago
  We’ll thats certainly not the “lefty liberal” shining through with that gratuitous use use of derogatory terms for female anatomy as an insult in that comment.
  - gsinclair 4y ago
    You’re not from Australia, I see.
hosh 4y ago
I don’t claim that it leads to equality. That’s a problematic assertion. I said that the relational words in Mandarin leads to (and enforces) a collectivist rather than than individualist mindset. There is less semantics about identity and more about relations. Identity is a reference to a self, whereas relational words refer to how a self relates to another self. The emphasis is on the relation — and the social expectations, responsibilities, and priveledges of that relation, and less on the identity of either the speaker or the person the speaker refers to. So for example, I wouldn’t say “Bob”. I’d say “my da-ge” (big older brother). When I use the latter in conversations with other people, those people knows I have this relation I can lean on. When referring to younger siblings, I might not even use their names even if I could do so without being rude. I might say to someone else, “my xiao-de”, my little brother, making an implicit claim that this person is family, under my protection. Whether the kid is worthy of such protection, whether I personally want to or not, is secondary that there is a relation and there are expectations that goes with it.

mediumdeviation 4y ago

> Manderin has non-gendered pronouns referring to a person That's only when spoken, because 他 and 她 are homophones, no? Otherwise when written it is almost exactly the same as English in how pronouns are gendered with he/she/it.

contingencies 4y ago
Correct