4 ms·

I'd guess the vast majority of cities Netherlands predate cars by centuries. They were already "designed" without cars in mind. That is not true in the US, an

I'd guess the vast majority of cities Netherlands predate cars by centuries. They were already "designed" without cars in mind. That is not true in the US, and doubly so for the post war, suburban construction boon.

turtledove 4y ago
The US absolutely tore up cities to make them more car friendly. Redlining and slum clearing were used as justifications to knock down entire neighborhoods to put more roads in. Most old American cities started as port towns with streetcar suburbs, and then they tore the trains out. We don't have medieval cities, but saying cities were designed around the car is patently false. Yes, the fifties and sixties caused huge redesigns, but we can undo those.
- colejohnson66 4y ago
  > We don't have medieval cities, but saying cities were designed around the car is patently false. It's not. Cities have literally been created from nothing in the last few decades. Just because NYC, Atlanta, DC, etc. are old are have a history of redlining does not mean that every city does. Case in point: the cities around where I grew up were built in the last 3 decades. Those cities didn't have a choice but to have zoning laws and miles of road.
  - turtledove 4y ago
    I mean, sure. Some places have become urban centers recently and that's fair. But coast to coast, our biggest population centers were all established and built up before car centric planning. I live in Seattle, for instance, which used to have a network of rails. They've all been torn out and we're just now putting them back.
    - kansface 4y ago
      Seattle is geographically constrained. Most/all of the old cities (and metros) have sprawled to ungodly degrees like atlanta or la. How do you undo 70 years of development (ie, tens or hundreds of billions of dollars) spent on sprawling?
      - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
        It's hard, and will take decades. That said, there are a few things you can do relatively easily to make a start. 1. get rid of zoning laws that prevent building multi-family units. 2. invest heavily in public transit. Buses are great if they are widespread and arrive frequently. 3. in areas that have significant traffic, use trams/subways instead of buses. They carry way more people and don't sit in traffic. 4. make city centers dramatically more walkable. A 4 lane street is much harder to cross than a 2 lane street (or 2 one way 2 lane streets). 5. don't build new roads/highway exits that will encourage further sprawl.
Someone 4y ago
Reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherlands#Population_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherlands#..., the population of the Netherlands about doubled since 1945, so the vast majority of its cities may predate cars, but the vast majority of its neighborhoods won’t. I expect average household size to have decreased significantly, so it wouldn’t surprise me if at least 75% of inhabitants lived in post-war houses. Because of that, I don’t see suburban construction as a major difference between the USA and the Netherlands. A major difference likely is that the USA has room for sprawl, while the Netherlands doesn’t. Dutch suburbs likely are more dense than ones in the USA.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
drewcoo 4y ago
Well luckily for us that in the US, the new construction was not built to last. It was built to be replaced. We should try that!

turtledove 4y ago

The US absolutely tore up cities to make them more car friendly. Redlining and slum clearing were used as justifications to knock down entire neighborhoods to put more roads in. Most old American cities started as port towns with streetcar suburbs, and then they tore the trains out. We don't have medieval cities, but saying cities were designed around the car is patently false. Yes, the fifties and sixties caused huge redesigns, but we can undo those.

colejohnson66 4y ago
> We don't have medieval cities, but saying cities were designed around the car is patently false. It's not. Cities have literally been created from nothing in the last few decades. Just because NYC, Atlanta, DC, etc. are old are have a history of redlining does not mean that every city does. Case in point: the cities around where I grew up were built in the last 3 decades. Those cities didn't have a choice but to have zoning laws and miles of road.
- turtledove 4y ago
  I mean, sure. Some places have become urban centers recently and that's fair. But coast to coast, our biggest population centers were all established and built up before car centric planning. I live in Seattle, for instance, which used to have a network of rails. They've all been torn out and we're just now putting them back.
  - kansface 4y ago
    Seattle is geographically constrained. Most/all of the old cities (and metros) have sprawled to ungodly degrees like atlanta or la. How do you undo 70 years of development (ie, tens or hundreds of billions of dollars) spent on sprawling?
    - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
      It's hard, and will take decades. That said, there are a few things you can do relatively easily to make a start. 1. get rid of zoning laws that prevent building multi-family units. 2. invest heavily in public transit. Buses are great if they are widespread and arrive frequently. 3. in areas that have significant traffic, use trams/subways instead of buses. They carry way more people and don't sit in traffic. 4. make city centers dramatically more walkable. A 4 lane street is much harder to cross than a 2 lane street (or 2 one way 2 lane streets). 5. don't build new roads/highway exits that will encourage further sprawl.

Someone 4y ago

Reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherlands#Population_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherlands#..., the population of the Netherlands about doubled since 1945, so the vast majority of its cities may predate cars, but the vast majority of its neighborhoods won’t. I expect average household size to have decreased significantly, so it wouldn’t surprise me if at least 75% of inhabitants lived in post-war houses. Because of that, I don’t see suburban construction as a major difference between the USA and the Netherlands. A major difference likely is that the USA has room for sprawl, while the Netherlands doesn’t. Dutch suburbs likely are more dense than ones in the USA.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

drewcoo 4y ago

Well luckily for us that in the US, the new construction was not built to last. It was built to be replaced. We should try that!