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This anti car shit is so dumb IMO. Cows produce wayyyyy more atmospheric pollution than cars. Supertankers emit 260x the world's car pollution every year. Count

This anti car shit is so dumb IMO. Cows produce wayyyyy more atmospheric pollution than cars. Supertankers emit 260x the world's car pollution every year. Countries are burning tons of coal and putting thick smog into the atmosphere. So what do we do? Make life harder for basically every western citizen by making gas prices skyrocket and banning gas cars, and do nothing about those other problems. It seems to me like nothing more than idiotic virtue signaling (like so many other policies nowadays, unfortunately).

belter 4y ago
The solution is clear. Buy a private jet. "EU Proposes To Exempt Private Jets From Fuel Tax": https://bitluxtravel.com/eu-proposes-to-exempt-private-jets-from-fuel-tax/ https://bitluxtravel.com/eu-proposes-to-exempt-private-jets-...
- uejfiweun 4y ago
  Lol, I haven't seen that before. Sometimes these people truly defy all reason. Not sure what to do other than shake my head in disgust.
  - sam_lowry_ 4y ago
    vote wisely?
    - luciusdomitius 4y ago
      Have you noticed how EU parliament works - it doesn't matter whom you send there, they all vote the same. With a few exceptions like Petr Mach or J Korvin-Mikke ofc, but it is more fringe exceptions.
Tainnor 4y ago
> Make life harder for basically every western citizen by making gas prices skyrocket That's mostly done by a certain Mr. Putin.
- uejfiweun 4y ago
  Putin's actions certainly don't help, but our policy response here is pretty stupid. Instead of ratcheting up our own oil production to counterbalance the loss of supply from Russia, it seems we have intensified anti-oil regulations [1] in service of the goal of some mystical "energy transition" that is yet to materialize [2]. Of course, my sources here are just what I see online, would love to hear from someone who has firsthand perspective on the US energy industry. [1] https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/06/05/chevrons-ceo-says-no-more-us-oil-refineries-what-s/ https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/06/05/chevrons-ceo-says-... [2] https://nypost.com/2022/05/23/biden-praises-gas-prices-as-part-of-incredible-transition/ https://nypost.com/2022/05/23/biden-praises-gas-prices-as-pa...
_dain_ 4y ago
the anti-car case can be made without any reference at all to global warming. designing cities around expecting everyone to own and drive a car is stupid and makes us all poorer and unhealthier. that includes electric vehicles btw.
- rad_gruchalski 4y ago
  Not everybody lives in a city. Proven by the exodus from the cities during covid…
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    suburbs too
  - freemint 4y ago
    We could still pay for public transport on the country side too.
    - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
      I live in the countryside and I’m going to be completely honest: I take a car any time a day. Public transport doesn’t go where I usually go to.
      - freemint 4y ago
        By paying for public transport i mean paying for transport, maybe a some app ordered transporters which can fit a family and stuff.
        mantas 4y ago
        So that transport would do be basically a family car with a lot of junk kilometers?
        2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
        It costs 20€ just to get a Taxi go come out here, and the total cost of taking a taxi to the closest bus stop is about 40€. Sure, if the weather is nice, I can ride a bike to the same bus stop and get some exersize at the same time, but that'll get a bit problematic during winter. I don't expect society to spend hundreds of millions on making public transport available to the 30% of the Finnish population who live outside urban areas. It will, however, take more than a decade before EV's are viable alternatives to everyone living in the countryside; the power grid needs extensive renovations, power production needs to get away from fossil fuels and the EV's themselves need to be both capable and cheap enough for people to afford them. I can buy 20 year-old car in working order for about 600€ today if I want to. Even cheaper if I don't care about electric windows. I know people who would barely be able to afford such a purchase if their current car broke down. None of them will be able to afford a used EV anytime soon, and I suspect, not in '25 either. That being said, EV's is a good thing. We need synthetic petrol and diesel until they're able to fill all needs currently filled by ICE cars, though. We're going to need it for farming and forestry equipment and the like anyway, so we might aswell get that ball rolling.
belorn 4y ago
Stopping coal, oil and natural gas in the energy and heat sector is hard problems because a lot of influential and power companies and powerful people depend on those things to be cheap in order to continue increase revenues. Car manufacturers however doesn't really care that much if they produce an electric car or an IC car, since the profits in selling cars is fairly similar either way. As long they know ahead of time when to switch manufacturing so they can slowly switch production, and all manufacturers are effected identically, it doesn't matter much. Replacing fossil fuel infrastructure is also very costly to government budgets since existing investment are sunk costs.
- lp0_on_fire 4y ago
  > Stopping coal, oil and natural gas in the energy and heat sector is hard problems because a lot of influential and power companies and powerful people depend on those things to be cheap in order to continue increase revenues. How about we forget about those "influential and powerful" people for just a second and worry about the little guy who relies on having cheap energy available to get to work? The ones who, when the price of energy goes up, have to decide between buying vegetables for their kids that week instead of cheap junk food vs filling up the tank to get a paycheck? Or the ones that live in a not so great house who need to fill up the oil tank to get through winter without freezing to death. Or the ones who live at the edge of death valley and need air conditioning to have a semblance of comfort in the summer? Or the ones who live in apartments with no ability to charge an electric vehicle. Can we (not you specifically but collectively) please, for once, start worrying about them too instead of pretending the reason this problem is so complex is because of the big bad greedy corporations?
  - benj111 4y ago
    >worry about the little guy who relies on having cheap energy available to get to work? Surely the issue is relying on cheap energy then, not the fact that its no longer available. I've just checked US prices and they're about $1.30 a litre. compared to Europe that is cheap. but then we have more fuel efficient cars. If you want to talk about knock on inflationary pressures then I'd probably agree with you, but my fuel costs roughly twice what yours costs, and its still not causing a major dent in my finances, and most of my driving isn't for work. >decide between buying vegetables for their kids that week instead of cheap junk food Why do people claim that junk food is cheaper than veg? A low carbon diet probably coincides quite nicely with a low cost diet, I know my major food costs are meat (and alcohol), veg is basically a rounding error.
Tiktaalik 4y ago
Is there an alternative to moving goods other than super tankers (or planes?) There's plenty of alternatives to moving people than the car, such as walking, cycling and a variety of forms of public transit, all of which are more efficient and less CO2 intensive than the car. The reason for the legislative focus on cars is because amongst all the various things we need to do to lower CO2 emissions, it is one of the most relatively easiest shifts to make. The additional upside as well is that at a local city level, cars are an enormous percentage of CO2 emissions, and on top of the whole limiting climate change thing, shifting to electric is going to have real every day positive impacts in air quality.
- mantas 4y ago
  Local manufacturing and consuming less crap.
- sam_lowry_ 4y ago
  Trains. Also, tankers and cargo ships have inefficient engines what if International Maritime Organization enforced emission limits like for cars?
  - closewith 4y ago
    Are you suggesting that trains are more efficient than tankers? Per ton-km, ships are close to an order of magnitude lower CO2 emissions.
nmehner 4y ago
I am sorry, but your comment is very uninformed. * Cows produce methane, cars produce CO2. Talking about "pollution" just muddies the waters. According to https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector lifestock produces 6% of greenhouse gases, road transport 12%. Also looking at Germany (I don't have data for all of Europe), drinking milk production fell by 7% in one year (replaced by plant based milk) https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2022/05/PE22_N034_51.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2022/05/PE22_N034_51.html . Beef production fell by 2.4% (https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2022/02/PE22_050_413.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2022/02/PE22_050_413.html ) So changes are happening in agriculture as well. * Supertanker emit a lot of soot, not so much CO2. Again: Talking about pollution in generic terms does not help. Also supertankers won't be needed anymore, if no oil is consumed. So electric cars will help with this as well. Replacing all fossil fuels would remove need for 40% of all tonnage shipped worldwide. * Sweden and Norway already have basically completely renewable electric grids. Germany is exiting coal by 2038 (this will hopefully be accelerated to 2030). Every year some of the existing coal plants are being shut down: https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/ElektrizitaetundGas/Kohleausstieg/start.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/Elektrizitaet... * No new gas heatings will to allowed to be installed in most EU countries by 2025. Heat pumps are already the default in Scandinavia and will be in other countries soon. * Hydrogen production is being ramped up: https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/germany-s-first-major-hydrogen-hub-uniper-to-supply-salzgitter-steel-plant-with-green-h2/2-1-1171937 https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/germany-s-fir... or https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/electric-power/090221-h2-energys-1-gw-danish-green-hydrogen-project-to-supply-trucks-stations-industry https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight... to replace gas usage where electricity does not work. So a lot is happening in all sectors. And you can see results: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&country=FRA~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?t... This is not just virtue signalling.
- mantas 4y ago
  Sweden and Norway are lucky to have long chain of mountains to run hydro. Scandinavian hydro won't power everybody's electric cars...
benj111 4y ago
>making gas prices skyrocket and banning gas cars. you know that the latter will solve the former. and fuel prices are more about a certain invasion so not so much about the environment. So which do you want to complain about?
prmoustache 4y ago
> This anti car shit is so dumb IMO. This is anti-petrol, not anti-car. They haven't banned the sale of cars.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
_ph_ 4y ago
This is not anti-car, it is about fighting climate change. And whataboutism doesn't help. We have to basically eliminate all sources of greenhouse-gas emissions to fight climate change. So yes, we need to make cars not emit CO2. And to deal with any other emissions, like the ones you have named. And of course, no one is asking people to get rid of car, just not to buy any ICE car after 2035. Today, there are already lots of electrical cars to choose from and the offerings will definitely increase going forward, especially as now car manufacturers have a clear deadline for combustion engines.
helsinkiandrew 4y ago
ICE cars are replaceable with Electric cars fairly easily. The EU is aiming to meet its Paris agreement on coal reduction by 2050 (and many other countries before that, UK eliminating use of coal by 2024, Germany by 2030) https://climateanalytics.org/briefings/eu-coal-phase-out/#:~:text=According%20to%20modelling%20completed%20by,of%20their%20full%20life%20span https://climateanalytics.org/briefings/eu-coal-phase-out/#:~.... Many people are also reducing their use of cows. Just going after the biggest polluter one by one will take far too long.

belter 4y ago

The solution is clear. Buy a private jet. "EU Proposes To Exempt Private Jets From Fuel Tax": https://bitluxtravel.com/eu-proposes-to-exempt-private-jets-from-fuel-tax/ https://bitluxtravel.com/eu-proposes-to-exempt-private-jets-...

uejfiweun 4y ago
Lol, I haven't seen that before. Sometimes these people truly defy all reason. Not sure what to do other than shake my head in disgust.
- sam_lowry_ 4y ago
  vote wisely?
  - luciusdomitius 4y ago
    Have you noticed how EU parliament works - it doesn't matter whom you send there, they all vote the same. With a few exceptions like Petr Mach or J Korvin-Mikke ofc, but it is more fringe exceptions.

Tainnor 4y ago

> Make life harder for basically every western citizen by making gas prices skyrocket That's mostly done by a certain Mr. Putin.

uejfiweun 4y ago
Putin's actions certainly don't help, but our policy response here is pretty stupid. Instead of ratcheting up our own oil production to counterbalance the loss of supply from Russia, it seems we have intensified anti-oil regulations [1] in service of the goal of some mystical "energy transition" that is yet to materialize [2]. Of course, my sources here are just what I see online, would love to hear from someone who has firsthand perspective on the US energy industry. [1] https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/06/05/chevrons-ceo-says-no-more-us-oil-refineries-what-s/ https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/06/05/chevrons-ceo-says-... [2] https://nypost.com/2022/05/23/biden-praises-gas-prices-as-part-of-incredible-transition/ https://nypost.com/2022/05/23/biden-praises-gas-prices-as-pa...

_dain_ 4y ago

the anti-car case can be made without any reference at all to global warming. designing cities around expecting everyone to own and drive a car is stupid and makes us all poorer and unhealthier. that includes electric vehicles btw.

rad_gruchalski 4y ago
Not everybody lives in a city. Proven by the exodus from the cities during covid…
- _dain_ 4y ago
  suburbs too
- freemint 4y ago
  We could still pay for public transport on the country side too.
  - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
    I live in the countryside and I’m going to be completely honest: I take a car any time a day. Public transport doesn’t go where I usually go to.
    - freemint 4y ago
      By paying for public transport i mean paying for transport, maybe a some app ordered transporters which can fit a family and stuff.
      - mantas 4y ago
        So that transport would do be basically a family car with a lot of junk kilometers?
      - 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
        It costs 20€ just to get a Taxi go come out here, and the total cost of taking a taxi to the closest bus stop is about 40€. Sure, if the weather is nice, I can ride a bike to the same bus stop and get some exersize at the same time, but that'll get a bit problematic during winter. I don't expect society to spend hundreds of millions on making public transport available to the 30% of the Finnish population who live outside urban areas. It will, however, take more than a decade before EV's are viable alternatives to everyone living in the countryside; the power grid needs extensive renovations, power production needs to get away from fossil fuels and the EV's themselves need to be both capable and cheap enough for people to afford them. I can buy 20 year-old car in working order for about 600€ today if I want to. Even cheaper if I don't care about electric windows. I know people who would barely be able to afford such a purchase if their current car broke down. None of them will be able to afford a used EV anytime soon, and I suspect, not in '25 either. That being said, EV's is a good thing. We need synthetic petrol and diesel until they're able to fill all needs currently filled by ICE cars, though. We're going to need it for farming and forestry equipment and the like anyway, so we might aswell get that ball rolling.

belorn 4y ago

Stopping coal, oil and natural gas in the energy and heat sector is hard problems because a lot of influential and power companies and powerful people depend on those things to be cheap in order to continue increase revenues. Car manufacturers however doesn't really care that much if they produce an electric car or an IC car, since the profits in selling cars is fairly similar either way. As long they know ahead of time when to switch manufacturing so they can slowly switch production, and all manufacturers are effected identically, it doesn't matter much. Replacing fossil fuel infrastructure is also very costly to government budgets since existing investment are sunk costs.

lp0_on_fire 4y ago
> Stopping coal, oil and natural gas in the energy and heat sector is hard problems because a lot of influential and power companies and powerful people depend on those things to be cheap in order to continue increase revenues. How about we forget about those "influential and powerful" people for just a second and worry about the little guy who relies on having cheap energy available to get to work? The ones who, when the price of energy goes up, have to decide between buying vegetables for their kids that week instead of cheap junk food vs filling up the tank to get a paycheck? Or the ones that live in a not so great house who need to fill up the oil tank to get through winter without freezing to death. Or the ones who live at the edge of death valley and need air conditioning to have a semblance of comfort in the summer? Or the ones who live in apartments with no ability to charge an electric vehicle. Can we (not you specifically but collectively) please, for once, start worrying about them too instead of pretending the reason this problem is so complex is because of the big bad greedy corporations?
- benj111 4y ago
  >worry about the little guy who relies on having cheap energy available to get to work? Surely the issue is relying on cheap energy then, not the fact that its no longer available. I've just checked US prices and they're about $1.30 a litre. compared to Europe that is cheap. but then we have more fuel efficient cars. If you want to talk about knock on inflationary pressures then I'd probably agree with you, but my fuel costs roughly twice what yours costs, and its still not causing a major dent in my finances, and most of my driving isn't for work. >decide between buying vegetables for their kids that week instead of cheap junk food Why do people claim that junk food is cheaper than veg? A low carbon diet probably coincides quite nicely with a low cost diet, I know my major food costs are meat (and alcohol), veg is basically a rounding error.

Tiktaalik 4y ago

Is there an alternative to moving goods other than super tankers (or planes?) There's plenty of alternatives to moving people than the car, such as walking, cycling and a variety of forms of public transit, all of which are more efficient and less CO2 intensive than the car. The reason for the legislative focus on cars is because amongst all the various things we need to do to lower CO2 emissions, it is one of the most relatively easiest shifts to make. The additional upside as well is that at a local city level, cars are an enormous percentage of CO2 emissions, and on top of the whole limiting climate change thing, shifting to electric is going to have real every day positive impacts in air quality.

mantas 4y ago
Local manufacturing and consuming less crap.
sam_lowry_ 4y ago
Trains. Also, tankers and cargo ships have inefficient engines what if International Maritime Organization enforced emission limits like for cars?
- closewith 4y ago
  Are you suggesting that trains are more efficient than tankers? Per ton-km, ships are close to an order of magnitude lower CO2 emissions.

nmehner 4y ago

I am sorry, but your comment is very uninformed. * Cows produce methane, cars produce CO2. Talking about "pollution" just muddies the waters. According to https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector lifestock produces 6% of greenhouse gases, road transport 12%. Also looking at Germany (I don't have data for all of Europe), drinking milk production fell by 7% in one year (replaced by plant based milk) https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2022/05/PE22_N034_51.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2022/05/PE22_N034_51.html . Beef production fell by 2.4% (https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2022/02/PE22_050_413.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2022/02/PE22_050_413.html ) So changes are happening in agriculture as well. * Supertanker emit a lot of soot, not so much CO2. Again: Talking about pollution in generic terms does not help. Also supertankers won't be needed anymore, if no oil is consumed. So electric cars will help with this as well. Replacing all fossil fuels would remove need for 40% of all tonnage shipped worldwide. * Sweden and Norway already have basically completely renewable electric grids. Germany is exiting coal by 2038 (this will hopefully be accelerated to 2030). Every year some of the existing coal plants are being shut down: https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/ElektrizitaetundGas/Kohleausstieg/start.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/Elektrizitaet... * No new gas heatings will to allowed to be installed in most EU countries by 2025. Heat pumps are already the default in Scandinavia and will be in other countries soon. * Hydrogen production is being ramped up: https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/germany-s-first-major-hydrogen-hub-uniper-to-supply-salzgitter-steel-plant-with-green-h2/2-1-1171937 https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/germany-s-fir... or https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/electric-power/090221-h2-energys-1-gw-danish-green-hydrogen-project-to-supply-trucks-stations-industry https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight... to replace gas usage where electricity does not work. So a lot is happening in all sectors. And you can see results: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&country=FRA~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?t... This is not just virtue signalling.

mantas 4y ago
Sweden and Norway are lucky to have long chain of mountains to run hydro. Scandinavian hydro won't power everybody's electric cars...

benj111 4y ago

>making gas prices skyrocket and banning gas cars. you know that the latter will solve the former. and fuel prices are more about a certain invasion so not so much about the environment. So which do you want to complain about?

prmoustache 4y ago

> This anti car shit is so dumb IMO. This is anti-petrol, not anti-car. They haven't banned the sale of cars.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

_ph_ 4y ago

This is not anti-car, it is about fighting climate change. And whataboutism doesn't help. We have to basically eliminate all sources of greenhouse-gas emissions to fight climate change. So yes, we need to make cars not emit CO2. And to deal with any other emissions, like the ones you have named. And of course, no one is asking people to get rid of car, just not to buy any ICE car after 2035. Today, there are already lots of electrical cars to choose from and the offerings will definitely increase going forward, especially as now car manufacturers have a clear deadline for combustion engines.

helsinkiandrew 4y ago

ICE cars are replaceable with Electric cars fairly easily. The EU is aiming to meet its Paris agreement on coal reduction by 2050 (and many other countries before that, UK eliminating use of coal by 2024, Germany by 2030) https://climateanalytics.org/briefings/eu-coal-phase-out/#:~:text=According%20to%20modelling%20completed%20by,of%20their%20full%20life%20span https://climateanalytics.org/briefings/eu-coal-phase-out/#:~.... Many people are also reducing their use of cows. Just going after the biggest polluter one by one will take far too long.