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Top F1 designer says auto industry moving in wrong direction with electric cars

31 points by balaji1 4y ago

balaji1 4y ago
specific section - https://the-race.com/formula-1/newey-in-depth-aborted-ferrari-switch-verstappen-and-retirement/#:~:text=We%20now%20have%20electric%20SUVs https://the-race.com/formula-1/newey-in-depth-aborted-ferrar... "We now have electric SUVs – huge 4x4s with electric! Ludicrous. It just makes no sense whatsoever. It would just be nice to see cars getting a bit more efficient – whatever the propulsion unit might be, but in terms of the aero, weights, engine size. All these government organisations pat themselves on the back for the improved safety regulations but just like in F1 it makes the car very heavy. Also things like on the combustion engine having such low emissions from a cold start – again that puts weight into the car. The regulators don’t seem to think about that. They want utopia, a car with no emissions and is very efficient"
- edhelas 4y ago
  In the end a car, electric or not, is a 1.5T complex machine that transport most of the time 80kg of human and that stays immobile 95% of the time. You can turn it the way you want, the issue is the concept itself. A bus is more logical, a bike is more logical, a train is more logical, even a commercial plane is more logical.
  - xxs 4y ago
    >a 1.5T complex machine The article talks about massive cars with lots of weight - 1500kg is on the light side of the story.
    - aidenn0 4y ago
      Indeed, I've only owned compact cars but never owned a car that weighted less than 1.5 short tonnes. The base-model manual-transmission 2022 Civic comes in at 2877lbs, so is actually under 1.5 short tons.
  - Sturmis 4y ago
    And walking is more logical.
  - throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
    the concept is having freedom to go wherever you want, whenever you want, whether you're young and healthy or old and frail, whether it's day or night, rain or snow very controversial, I know
    - rocgf 4y ago
      Having cars as the primary and often sole viable method of transportation, under any circumstances, be it for a soda craved in the middle of the night, vacationing in a different state or daily commute, and having all the cities and the country designed for them is totally a ridiculous concept.
      - throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
        and until we get star trek tech, the only alternative to cars in a city is getting on a meatwagon and having your day enriched by drunks, junkies, crazies and numerous other vibrant urban characters and outside the cities, would you have buses run around the clock between little towns in the middle of nowhere on the off-chance that someone from a farm might need a ride in the middle of the night?
        rocgf 4y ago
        Cars and what you described are not the only two options. Your perspective is way too American. Visit Europe and maybe you'll understand.
        throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
        there's a number of differences between European (except a few, since some time ago) and American cities, and don't pretend you don't understand
  - wing-_-nuts 4y ago
    If I lived in a perfect world with universal bike lanes and drivers that were actually mindful of cyclists and gave them space, I'd gladly do most of my errands with a cargo ebike. Sadly we do not live in that world. Cycling on public streets with real traffic is signing up for a lot of stress and a not insignificant chance of bodily harm. Until that's fixed with infrastructure changes on par with what they have in the Netherlands, I make my peace with using a 2T machine.
    - majewsky 4y ago
      How did it actually go in the Netherlands? Was it "better bike infrastructure -> more bike usage" like you suggest? Or was it the other way around?
      - rocgf 4y ago
        It was both. The Netherlands had relatively high bike usage before "the cycling revolution" in the 70s, but either way it's kind of a moot point. Either way, if you're trying to insinuate that you first need the bikes and then the infrastructure, you're going to have a hard time finding good arguments.
        balaji1 4y ago
        is there a case for electric bikes? I enjoy electric bikes. It seems to add significant functionality (and I find it super fun), without changing much of the characteristics of a bicycle, biking itself (except maybe slightly more risky) and infra to charge bikes would be much more scalable.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
Automakers started making ultra-heavy flagship EVs as a way to make electric cars cool and attractive. But then it feels inertia took over and now we're getting all of these unreasonably heavy and powerful EVs in some sort of magazine specifications arms race. Some of these gigantic EVs are approaching 10,000 lbs. I'm not excited to have random drivers piloting their 9,000 lb electric SUVs with 1000 HP doing 0-60 in the 3-4 second range. That's an unbelievable amount of kinetic energy that someone can deploy in a matter of seconds while surrounded by cars weighing 1/3 as much.
- strongpigeon 4y ago
  This feels a bit like cherry picking? I mean, the heaviest EV is the Hummer EV at 9000lbs compared to the original Hummer at 8000lbs. Most other EVs are of course heavier but not garishly so (e.g. Tesla Model 3 coming at around 4000 lbs, which is about the same as a BMW M3). The point about the acceleration being stronger is fair, but I don't think this means overall EVs are much more dangerous than ICE cars.
  - quesera 4y ago
    (Deleted naïve physics of uncommon case.)
    - dr_orpheus 4y ago
      But the acceleration that you are concerned about here is the acceleration (or deceleration) of a car from it's current speed to the speed after the crash. That's the acceleration that has an impact on humans. A more accurate equation to look at would be kinetic energy = 1/2mv^2. More energy a car has in hitting something the worse the outcome will be. Now you can say that cars with greater acceleration may be more likely to be driving faster, but it's not a direct correlation of acceleration of a car to the force of impact of the car.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
strongpigeon 4y ago
Honestly, I feel like the submission title is overly editorialized. The part about the auto industry supposedly moving in the wrong direction is barely a paragraph all the way to the end. This is mostly about Newey's career.
- iLoveOncall 4y ago
  He also never says that electric is not the right direction. Here's the quote: > “We now have electric SUVs – huge 4x4s with electric! Ludicrous. It just makes no sense whatsoever. It would just be nice to see cars getting a bit more efficient – whatever the propulsion unit might be, but in terms of the aero, weights, engine size. All these government organisations pat themselves on the back for the improved safety regulations but just like in F1 it makes the car very heavy. Also things like on the combustion engine having such low emissions from a cold start – again that puts weight into the car. The regulators don’t seem to think about that. They want utopia, a car with no emissions and is very efficient.” To me he's saying that SUVs make no sense (rightfully so), not electric cars.
  - antisthenes 4y ago
    Some of it makes sense. Safety features make the car heavier ---> weight increases collision force ---> need more safety features. In a way it's a self-reinforcing loop where you end up with a 2-ton vehicle to ferry around 1 person, which is a bit ridiculous if you think about it.
    - majewsky 4y ago
      I'm not a car expert by any means, but I just did a quick look through the Euro NCAP database, and apparently there are some models with 5-star ratings that are below 1.5 metric tons. I don't disagree that safety features don't incur additional weight, but it stands to reason that not all the weight gains are caused by additional safety features. It appears to me that it's more about perceived safety, which leads to an arms race: If everyone around you is driving a 3-ton SUV, you'd be less inclined to choose a Smart ForTwo, even if it's sufficient for your mobility needs and more economical, because you fear what happens when one of the SUV monsters crashes into your car. There are some ways to fix this: banning SUVs (e.g. by capping vehicle weight for individually-owned cars), providing better public transit options, disincentivizing car ownership in urban areas (e.g. by reducing parking spaces), etc. Obviously none of those policy proposals are going to be popular.
someweirdperson 4y ago
Tesla did it right. With the roadster. I would like to buy an electric car. Small (flat/low drag), no useless electrical consumers (no power steering, always-online, TV, coffee machine, ...). As a second car, obviously, for the weeked joyride. I can reach work by bike effortlessly. But all that is being built is all SUV, SUV, and more SUVs. Maybe, one day. Miata electric? Will probably be full of electronic toys. Electric Boxter/Cayman? Useless fluffy interior. Also, probably bloated electronics, too. Maybe Lotus, like the original Tesla, except with more modern battery/drive train. 2026?
- tadfisher 4y ago
  As a Miata owner/enthusiast (first-generation), I'm worried about electrification. I just can't see how they can pull it off without adding 500+ lbs to the curb weight, at which point it's no longer a Miata but a GR86 without a roof. The current generation is remarkably close to my car's weight (2300 vs 2100 lbs), which is quite an achievement given modern safety requirements.
raverbashing 4y ago
For those who want the tl;dr: > “We now have electric SUVs – huge 4x4s with electric! Ludicrous. It just makes no sense whatsoever. It would just be nice to see cars getting a bit more efficient – whatever the propulsion unit might be, but in terms of the aero, weights, engine size. Agree > All these government organisations pat themselves on the back for the improved safety regulations but just like in F1 it makes the car very heavy. Well, that's the way it is. Safety has a weight penalty. Not everything is an F1 car
- someweirdperson 4y ago
  And still, motor cycles are still legal to buy and ride. But more dangerous than even the most flimsy car.
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    Yeah, those organs are not going to donation by themselves you know ;) There aren't many ways of making motorbikes safer. But cars/SUVs are more dangerous to everything around them than the bikes.
oliwary 4y ago
Adrian Newey is the chief technical officer for Red Bull Racing. His achievements are truly mindboggling, he has designed 10 championship winning cars! I found his autobiography "How to Build a Car: The Autobiography of the World’s Greatest Formula 1 Designer" to be very enjoyable, describing his career in motor racing and the challenges he faced. It feels a bit similar to iWoz in that it very frankly chronicles the experience of an engineering genius. I can highly recommend it: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/35657708-how-to-build-a-car https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/35657708-how-to-build...

31 points by balaji1 4y ago

specific section - https://the-race.com/formula-1/newey-in-depth-aborted-ferrari-switch-verstappen-and-retirement/#:~:text=We%20now%20have%20electric%20SUVs https://the-race.com/formula-1/newey-in-depth-aborted-ferrar... "We now have electric SUVs – huge 4x4s with electric! Ludicrous. It just makes no sense whatsoever. It would just be nice to see cars getting a bit more efficient – whatever the propulsion unit might be, but in terms of the aero, weights, engine size. All these government organisations pat themselves on the back for the improved safety regulations but just like in F1 it makes the car very heavy. Also things like on the combustion engine having such low emissions from a cold start – again that puts weight into the car. The regulators don’t seem to think about that. They want utopia, a car with no emissions and is very efficient"

edhelas 4y ago
In the end a car, electric or not, is a 1.5T complex machine that transport most of the time 80kg of human and that stays immobile 95% of the time. You can turn it the way you want, the issue is the concept itself. A bus is more logical, a bike is more logical, a train is more logical, even a commercial plane is more logical.
- xxs 4y ago
  >a 1.5T complex machine The article talks about massive cars with lots of weight - 1500kg is on the light side of the story.
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    Indeed, I've only owned compact cars but never owned a car that weighted less than 1.5 short tonnes. The base-model manual-transmission 2022 Civic comes in at 2877lbs, so is actually under 1.5 short tons.
- Sturmis 4y ago
  And walking is more logical.
- throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
  the concept is having freedom to go wherever you want, whenever you want, whether you're young and healthy or old and frail, whether it's day or night, rain or snow very controversial, I know
  - rocgf 4y ago
    Having cars as the primary and often sole viable method of transportation, under any circumstances, be it for a soda craved in the middle of the night, vacationing in a different state or daily commute, and having all the cities and the country designed for them is totally a ridiculous concept.
    - throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
      and until we get star trek tech, the only alternative to cars in a city is getting on a meatwagon and having your day enriched by drunks, junkies, crazies and numerous other vibrant urban characters and outside the cities, would you have buses run around the clock between little towns in the middle of nowhere on the off-chance that someone from a farm might need a ride in the middle of the night?
      - rocgf 4y ago
        Cars and what you described are not the only two options. Your perspective is way too American. Visit Europe and maybe you'll understand.
        throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
        there's a number of differences between European (except a few, since some time ago) and American cities, and don't pretend you don't understand
- wing-_-nuts 4y ago
  If I lived in a perfect world with universal bike lanes and drivers that were actually mindful of cyclists and gave them space, I'd gladly do most of my errands with a cargo ebike. Sadly we do not live in that world. Cycling on public streets with real traffic is signing up for a lot of stress and a not insignificant chance of bodily harm. Until that's fixed with infrastructure changes on par with what they have in the Netherlands, I make my peace with using a 2T machine.
  - majewsky 4y ago
    How did it actually go in the Netherlands? Was it "better bike infrastructure -> more bike usage" like you suggest? Or was it the other way around?
    - rocgf 4y ago
      It was both. The Netherlands had relatively high bike usage before "the cycling revolution" in the 70s, but either way it's kind of a moot point. Either way, if you're trying to insinuate that you first need the bikes and then the infrastructure, you're going to have a hard time finding good arguments.
      - balaji1 4y ago
        is there a case for electric bikes? I enjoy electric bikes. It seems to add significant functionality (and I find it super fun), without changing much of the characteristics of a bicycle, biking itself (except maybe slightly more risky) and infra to charge bikes would be much more scalable.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

Automakers started making ultra-heavy flagship EVs as a way to make electric cars cool and attractive. But then it feels inertia took over and now we're getting all of these unreasonably heavy and powerful EVs in some sort of magazine specifications arms race. Some of these gigantic EVs are approaching 10,000 lbs. I'm not excited to have random drivers piloting their 9,000 lb electric SUVs with 1000 HP doing 0-60 in the 3-4 second range. That's an unbelievable amount of kinetic energy that someone can deploy in a matter of seconds while surrounded by cars weighing 1/3 as much.

strongpigeon 4y ago
This feels a bit like cherry picking? I mean, the heaviest EV is the Hummer EV at 9000lbs compared to the original Hummer at 8000lbs. Most other EVs are of course heavier but not garishly so (e.g. Tesla Model 3 coming at around 4000 lbs, which is about the same as a BMW M3). The point about the acceleration being stronger is fair, but I don't think this means overall EVs are much more dangerous than ICE cars.
- quesera 4y ago
  (Deleted naïve physics of uncommon case.)
  - dr_orpheus 4y ago
    But the acceleration that you are concerned about here is the acceleration (or deceleration) of a car from it's current speed to the speed after the crash. That's the acceleration that has an impact on humans. A more accurate equation to look at would be kinetic energy = 1/2mv^2. More energy a car has in hitting something the worse the outcome will be. Now you can say that cars with greater acceleration may be more likely to be driving faster, but it's not a direct correlation of acceleration of a car to the force of impact of the car.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

strongpigeon 4y ago

Honestly, I feel like the submission title is overly editorialized. The part about the auto industry supposedly moving in the wrong direction is barely a paragraph all the way to the end. This is mostly about Newey's career.

iLoveOncall 4y ago
He also never says that electric is not the right direction. Here's the quote: > “We now have electric SUVs – huge 4x4s with electric! Ludicrous. It just makes no sense whatsoever. It would just be nice to see cars getting a bit more efficient – whatever the propulsion unit might be, but in terms of the aero, weights, engine size. All these government organisations pat themselves on the back for the improved safety regulations but just like in F1 it makes the car very heavy. Also things like on the combustion engine having such low emissions from a cold start – again that puts weight into the car. The regulators don’t seem to think about that. They want utopia, a car with no emissions and is very efficient.” To me he's saying that SUVs make no sense (rightfully so), not electric cars.
- antisthenes 4y ago
  Some of it makes sense. Safety features make the car heavier ---> weight increases collision force ---> need more safety features. In a way it's a self-reinforcing loop where you end up with a 2-ton vehicle to ferry around 1 person, which is a bit ridiculous if you think about it.
  - majewsky 4y ago
    I'm not a car expert by any means, but I just did a quick look through the Euro NCAP database, and apparently there are some models with 5-star ratings that are below 1.5 metric tons. I don't disagree that safety features don't incur additional weight, but it stands to reason that not all the weight gains are caused by additional safety features. It appears to me that it's more about perceived safety, which leads to an arms race: If everyone around you is driving a 3-ton SUV, you'd be less inclined to choose a Smart ForTwo, even if it's sufficient for your mobility needs and more economical, because you fear what happens when one of the SUV monsters crashes into your car. There are some ways to fix this: banning SUVs (e.g. by capping vehicle weight for individually-owned cars), providing better public transit options, disincentivizing car ownership in urban areas (e.g. by reducing parking spaces), etc. Obviously none of those policy proposals are going to be popular.

someweirdperson 4y ago

Tesla did it right. With the roadster. I would like to buy an electric car. Small (flat/low drag), no useless electrical consumers (no power steering, always-online, TV, coffee machine, ...). As a second car, obviously, for the weeked joyride. I can reach work by bike effortlessly. But all that is being built is all SUV, SUV, and more SUVs. Maybe, one day. Miata electric? Will probably be full of electronic toys. Electric Boxter/Cayman? Useless fluffy interior. Also, probably bloated electronics, too. Maybe Lotus, like the original Tesla, except with more modern battery/drive train. 2026?

tadfisher 4y ago
As a Miata owner/enthusiast (first-generation), I'm worried about electrification. I just can't see how they can pull it off without adding 500+ lbs to the curb weight, at which point it's no longer a Miata but a GR86 without a roof. The current generation is remarkably close to my car's weight (2300 vs 2100 lbs), which is quite an achievement given modern safety requirements.

raverbashing 4y ago

For those who want the tl;dr: > “We now have electric SUVs – huge 4x4s with electric! Ludicrous. It just makes no sense whatsoever. It would just be nice to see cars getting a bit more efficient – whatever the propulsion unit might be, but in terms of the aero, weights, engine size. Agree > All these government organisations pat themselves on the back for the improved safety regulations but just like in F1 it makes the car very heavy. Well, that's the way it is. Safety has a weight penalty. Not everything is an F1 car

someweirdperson 4y ago
And still, motor cycles are still legal to buy and ride. But more dangerous than even the most flimsy car.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  Yeah, those organs are not going to donation by themselves you know ;) There aren't many ways of making motorbikes safer. But cars/SUVs are more dangerous to everything around them than the bikes.

oliwary 4y ago

Adrian Newey is the chief technical officer for Red Bull Racing. His achievements are truly mindboggling, he has designed 10 championship winning cars! I found his autobiography "How to Build a Car: The Autobiography of the World’s Greatest Formula 1 Designer" to be very enjoyable, describing his career in motor racing and the challenges he faced. It feels a bit similar to iWoz in that it very frankly chronicles the experience of an engineering genius. I can highly recommend it: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/35657708-how-to-build-a-car https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/35657708-how-to-build...