16 ms·

Well, I was a dirt poor child of a single Puerto Rican mom in eastern Kentucky and I was accepted in gifted education the first year I went to public schools (w

by mmmpop 4y ago

Well, I was a dirt poor child of a single Puerto Rican mom in eastern Kentucky and I was accepted in gifted education the first year I went to public schools (which was the first year it was offered--the reason I went.) But to your point, I was not able to take algebra until 9th grade due to reasons that felt a bit discriminatory as you'd described, but my mother was a maniac and no one liked her, so hard to say if that didn't add weight.

UncleMeat 4y ago
There are always individual cases that work out. Even in systems with extreme oppression, members of oppressed groups succeed. But it is still a problem if there is a large and observable statistical disparity between groups for no compelling reason. Consider a toy admissions criteria where students go through the same process as today but students with black hair have to also win a game of rock paper scissors. There will surely be a large number of kids with black hair who are admitted and succeed. But the system would be plainly unfair and deserve to be fixed, despite many individual students with black hair being able to say "well I was admitted."
- mmmpop 4y ago
  I think what I'm getting at is that the "rich White affluent people gave me a chance" and I "didn't behave" according to their standards, so they pushed me out. I was too young to understand, but perhaps they had a fair point? I was well-behaved and bright, but coarse I suppose. I was too poor to participate in the fancy science trips, couldn't afford class materials, constantly late, and homework never got done due to what I remember as "family issues". I was bright and gifted, but a high achiever I was not. I don't blame them for pushing me out of the system, I didn't play by the rules. But from what you're saying, that's part of the problem and I don't disagree... but allowing me to persist and annoy those gifted kids with resources, encouraging families, and ambition wasn't really fair now was it?
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    I think it depends on what the rules are. A lot of rules encode social and class norms rather than actually achieve a pedagogical goal. Classic examples of this is forcing kids to use "proper" grammar rather than AAVE or forcing left-handed kids to write with the right hand.
    - mmmpop 4y ago
      I take your point but I had awful redneck grammar until I was 22 or so, and it's something everyone can fix if they just put the time in. I'm not a stickler for "correct" words because language evolves, but if you come to HN because you like programming, surely you'd understand why I'd appreciate semantics of grammar. But forcing a child to use their non-dominant right hand could be considered a form of cruelty I suppose, so not seeing how they're really related. When I go back home to Appalachia, I fall back into my old bad habits readily but if I got a call from my boss, I'm switching to "educated" and that's more than just ditching the drawl, it's modifying the entire way I structure my thoughts. I think that's very common and not unfair to expect from someone claiming that they desire education.
      - UncleMeat 4y ago
        What you describe here is often called "code switching" and it requires nontrivial mental effort. The folks that don't need to code switch (because work culture matches their dominant culture norms) are at an advantage.

by mmmpop 4y ago

UncleMeat 4y ago

There are always individual cases that work out. Even in systems with extreme oppression, members of oppressed groups succeed. But it is still a problem if there is a large and observable statistical disparity between groups for no compelling reason. Consider a toy admissions criteria where students go through the same process as today but students with black hair have to also win a game of rock paper scissors. There will surely be a large number of kids with black hair who are admitted and succeed. But the system would be plainly unfair and deserve to be fixed, despite many individual students with black hair being able to say "well I was admitted."

mmmpop 4y ago
I think what I'm getting at is that the "rich White affluent people gave me a chance" and I "didn't behave" according to their standards, so they pushed me out. I was too young to understand, but perhaps they had a fair point? I was well-behaved and bright, but coarse I suppose. I was too poor to participate in the fancy science trips, couldn't afford class materials, constantly late, and homework never got done due to what I remember as "family issues". I was bright and gifted, but a high achiever I was not. I don't blame them for pushing me out of the system, I didn't play by the rules. But from what you're saying, that's part of the problem and I don't disagree... but allowing me to persist and annoy those gifted kids with resources, encouraging families, and ambition wasn't really fair now was it?
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  I think it depends on what the rules are. A lot of rules encode social and class norms rather than actually achieve a pedagogical goal. Classic examples of this is forcing kids to use "proper" grammar rather than AAVE or forcing left-handed kids to write with the right hand.
  - mmmpop 4y ago
    I take your point but I had awful redneck grammar until I was 22 or so, and it's something everyone can fix if they just put the time in. I'm not a stickler for "correct" words because language evolves, but if you come to HN because you like programming, surely you'd understand why I'd appreciate semantics of grammar. But forcing a child to use their non-dominant right hand could be considered a form of cruelty I suppose, so not seeing how they're really related. When I go back home to Appalachia, I fall back into my old bad habits readily but if I got a call from my boss, I'm switching to "educated" and that's more than just ditching the drawl, it's modifying the entire way I structure my thoughts. I think that's very common and not unfair to expect from someone claiming that they desire education.
    - UncleMeat 4y ago
      What you describe here is often called "code switching" and it requires nontrivial mental effort. The folks that don't need to code switch (because work culture matches their dominant culture norms) are at an advantage.