6 ms·

How is that an answer? If someone isn't meeting the qualifications they aren't in. What's "unacceptable" about that?

by chernevik 4y ago

jeremyjh 4y ago
Are there qualifications other than test scores?
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  Apparently race given the assertion of similar test scores
- wccrawford 4y ago
  There are unwritten ones, at least. As I said in my other post, in my school you were taken out of regularly classes, but still had to learn those things and do that work. That means the student has to agree to work 20% harder, usually at home, where they may not have that luxury. There are probably other considerations that aren't coming to mind at the moment, too, that also affect the number of children in Gifted programs.
- derac 4y ago
  In my experience you are nominated to take an IQ-ish test and let in based on that score. I assume they mean test scores on regular coursework?
orpheansodality 4y ago
> compared to white students with similar test scores
Robotbeat 4y ago
> with similar test scores > with similar test scores > WITH SIMILAR TEST SCORES
- throwaway81348 4y ago
  Your point?
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    Presumably test scores are a not terrible proxy for qualification. So if black and hispanic students of similar qualification are not being admitted into these programs, then the programs are not actually equitably enrolling people.
- fein 4y ago
  I had to look around for the source of this, and I can't find the "with similar test scores" part in the Vanderbuilt site article on the Vanderbuilt study this is based on. It says 66% less likely, but the "similar test scores" part isn't in the same paragraph. I really dislike that it is so difficult to find the source of these statements in modern media, as the news articles I read didn't even cite the study, I had to go googling for it. What I found: https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2016/01/18/teachers-race-affects-gifted-program-selections/ https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2016/01/18/teachers-race-affects... and of course the link to the gov data source in that article is broken: http://https//nces.ed.gov/ecls/ http://https//nces.ed.gov/ecls/ Edit: I see where they pulled the line from. Misleading at best as the "tests" they are talking about are not gifted assessment tests, but rather standardized testing which I don't think is that great of an indicator. I was in the gifted program during middle school, and that was predicated by a few admittance tests, one of them being IQ.
  - femiagbabiaka 4y ago
    If you read three paragraphs of the article you linked you can see the statement written in plain english: > However, controlling for math and reading scores did not have the same effect for black students. In fact, black students continued to be assigned to gifted programs half as often as white peers with identical math and reading achievement. If you read to the end, the paper is literally linked: https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Grissom_AERAOpen_GiftedStudents1.pdf https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Gris...
UncleMeat 4y ago
Because the systems which identify students and enable them to meet the admissions requirements are massively unequal. I'll give an example. I attended a gifted program starting in 3rd grade. I went to an elementary school for 1st and 2nd grade that was almost entirely white with some asian kids. Part of the mechanism for selecting students for the gifted program was a letter from the student's counselor, teacher, and principal. My mom noticed that some schools were sending way more kids to the GT program than others. Several schools basically never sent any kids. No surprise, there were more black and hispanic kids at the schools. BUT these schools did not have a lack of students with high SOL scores or grades. It turned out that the process of identifying students and writing letters was letting these kids down. A few years of local activism to adjust the process and suddenly a bunch of kids from these other schools were being admitted to the GT program and succeeding. Activists recently tried to adjust the admissions criteria for TJHSST, a magnet school in the area, to be a "merit lottery." This says that you set some minimum qualification (minimum GPA and accelerated math coursework) and then select students at random from that pool. This proposal was called racist against south and east asian students and activists were called enemies of excellence by various people like Scott Aaronson. I was personally identified as having potential for going to TJ at age four. My parents paid a lot of money for me to have tutoring specifically for the admissions test. In the above example, black and hispanic students with similar qualifications (test scores) are not receiving the same access to accelerated programs. The point is that the mechanisms by which we define qualifications and select students really really matters and can encode all sorts of inequities.
- chernevik 4y ago
  The answer would be to improve the development of those students who are underdeveloped -- not change criteria for the identification of potential. This is, of course, far more complicated, and involves difficult problems. Far easier to sweep it all under the rug by calling attention to qualifications "unacceptable".
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    In my personal experience agitating for change in this space, it is precisely the same people who resist change in admissions criteria and who resist change in grants for equitable early development resources. And in the example I listed for early GT admissions, there was no need for developing "underdeveloped" students. They were already developed. They just had systems that didn't enable them to get through the gate to the GT program.

How is that an answer? If someone isn't meeting the qualifications they aren't in. What's "unacceptable" about that?

jeremyjh 4y ago

Are there qualifications other than test scores?

fnordpiglet 4y ago
Apparently race given the assertion of similar test scores
wccrawford 4y ago
There are unwritten ones, at least. As I said in my other post, in my school you were taken out of regularly classes, but still had to learn those things and do that work. That means the student has to agree to work 20% harder, usually at home, where they may not have that luxury. There are probably other considerations that aren't coming to mind at the moment, too, that also affect the number of children in Gifted programs.
derac 4y ago
In my experience you are nominated to take an IQ-ish test and let in based on that score. I assume they mean test scores on regular coursework?

orpheansodality 4y ago

> compared to white students with similar test scores

Robotbeat 4y ago

> with similar test scores > with similar test scores > WITH SIMILAR TEST SCORES

throwaway81348 4y ago
Your point?
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  Presumably test scores are a not terrible proxy for qualification. So if black and hispanic students of similar qualification are not being admitted into these programs, then the programs are not actually equitably enrolling people.
fein 4y ago
I had to look around for the source of this, and I can't find the "with similar test scores" part in the Vanderbuilt site article on the Vanderbuilt study this is based on. It says 66% less likely, but the "similar test scores" part isn't in the same paragraph. I really dislike that it is so difficult to find the source of these statements in modern media, as the news articles I read didn't even cite the study, I had to go googling for it. What I found: https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2016/01/18/teachers-race-affects-gifted-program-selections/ https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2016/01/18/teachers-race-affects... and of course the link to the gov data source in that article is broken: http://https//nces.ed.gov/ecls/ http://https//nces.ed.gov/ecls/ Edit: I see where they pulled the line from. Misleading at best as the "tests" they are talking about are not gifted assessment tests, but rather standardized testing which I don't think is that great of an indicator. I was in the gifted program during middle school, and that was predicated by a few admittance tests, one of them being IQ.
- femiagbabiaka 4y ago
  If you read three paragraphs of the article you linked you can see the statement written in plain english: > However, controlling for math and reading scores did not have the same effect for black students. In fact, black students continued to be assigned to gifted programs half as often as white peers with identical math and reading achievement. If you read to the end, the paper is literally linked: https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Grissom_AERAOpen_GiftedStudents1.pdf https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Gris...

UncleMeat 4y ago

Because the systems which identify students and enable them to meet the admissions requirements are massively unequal. I'll give an example. I attended a gifted program starting in 3rd grade. I went to an elementary school for 1st and 2nd grade that was almost entirely white with some asian kids. Part of the mechanism for selecting students for the gifted program was a letter from the student's counselor, teacher, and principal. My mom noticed that some schools were sending way more kids to the GT program than others. Several schools basically never sent any kids. No surprise, there were more black and hispanic kids at the schools. BUT these schools did not have a lack of students with high SOL scores or grades. It turned out that the process of identifying students and writing letters was letting these kids down. A few years of local activism to adjust the process and suddenly a bunch of kids from these other schools were being admitted to the GT program and succeeding. Activists recently tried to adjust the admissions criteria for TJHSST, a magnet school in the area, to be a "merit lottery." This says that you set some minimum qualification (minimum GPA and accelerated math coursework) and then select students at random from that pool. This proposal was called racist against south and east asian students and activists were called enemies of excellence by various people like Scott Aaronson. I was personally identified as having potential for going to TJ at age four. My parents paid a lot of money for me to have tutoring specifically for the admissions test. In the above example, black and hispanic students with similar qualifications (test scores) are not receiving the same access to accelerated programs. The point is that the mechanisms by which we define qualifications and select students really really matters and can encode all sorts of inequities.

chernevik 4y ago
The answer would be to improve the development of those students who are underdeveloped -- not change criteria for the identification of potential. This is, of course, far more complicated, and involves difficult problems. Far easier to sweep it all under the rug by calling attention to qualifications "unacceptable".
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  In my personal experience agitating for change in this space, it is precisely the same people who resist change in admissions criteria and who resist change in grants for equitable early development resources. And in the example I listed for early GT admissions, there was no need for developing "underdeveloped" students. They were already developed. They just had systems that didn't enable them to get through the gate to the GT program.