3 ms·

By demanding a mental health system that keeps people from harm while being perfectly compassionate, you're preferring the utopian social ideal to the possible.

by slibhb 4y ago

By demanding a mental health system that keeps people from harm while being perfectly compassionate, you're preferring the utopian social ideal to the possible. It's just too much to ask of doctors, nurses, and orderlies to be compassionate all the time. These people are human beings. Mush-brained calls for empathy are a dime a dozen and they lead to failed policies, in SF and elsewhere.

shkkmo 4y ago
> By demanding a mental health system that keeps people from harm while being perfectly compassionate, you're preferring the utopian social ideal to the possible. Nowhere did I demand perfection, only improvement. Refusing to even try to improve because perfection is impossible is irrational. > It's just too much to ask of doctors, nurses, and orderlies to be compassionate all the time. These people are human beings. That does not mean that we shouldn't find ways to improve the system to allow more compassion to be displayed. The hours and workloads we place on these workers are a significant contributing factor. We have a large problem with burnout, especially among our lower tier healthcare providers. > Mush-brained calls for empathy are a dime a dozen and they lead to failed policies, in SF and elsewhere. Name calling isn't a very effective communication strategy and won't hide the fact that your argument is based on falsehoods and misrepresentation. The ”failed policies” are the ones that created our drug and homelessness crises over that last several decades. The war on drugs is a failed policy, busing homeless is a failed policy, jailing drug addicts is a failed policy. That isn't to say that the new policies don't have problems and won't fail, but we need better options that just sticking with the failed policies that created the problem in the first place.
- gsibble 4y ago
  Actually, you're kind of off base. The first responders couldn't have been nicer. The firemen, EMTs, and policemen who responded were very kind and courteous. They didn't restrain me in the ambulance or anything. I thought I was being rescued and taken somewhere safe. I was not. It was the mental health infrastructure that was abysmal, not the first responders.
  - shkkmo 4y ago
    > The first responders couldn't have been nicer. The firemen, EMTs, and policemen who responded were very kind and courteous. Yes, I mostly agree. Fear of being treated poorly by the EMTs and firemen is not a reason to avoid calling 911. Even many police departments have been doing a much better job about making sure that their officers have a better training and mindset for calls involving mental health crises. There are still enough horror stories about police responses that I would evaluate the track record of your local department when deciding whether to be afraid of them when considering making that 911 call. > It was the mental health infrastructure that was abysmal, not the first responders. This was indeed the intended thrust of my comment. I think fixing the remaining issues with police training and attitude is a much smaller and less important problem than figuring out how to revamp, operate and fund our mental health system more effectively.
    - gsibble 4y ago
      Then we're in total agreement.
- slibhb 4y ago
  > Treating someone with mental illness effectively requires compassion. If being put on a psychiatric hold is a unnecessarily traumatic experience, you prevent some short term harm while causing long term damage. Not only do you add additional trauma that complicates recovery but you teach those in need of help to hide their suffering as long as possible. This is where you demanded perfection. Empathy and compassion are not the only values and the result of treating them as such is negative.
  - shkkmo 4y ago
    > This is where you demanded perfection. There is no call for perfection there. Stop pretending nuance doesn't exist. A system that helps 75% and harms 25% is better than a system that helps 25% and harms 75%. Improving the system so that compassion and empathy are a larger part of the process helps bring us closer to the former than the later for the reasons I explained. You ignored those reasons, and instead tried to attack a strawman... again. If you want to convey your arguments effectively, you need to try to understand what the person you are arguing with is saying rather than insisting they are saying what you want to argue against. > Empathy and compassion are not the only values and the result of treating them as such is negative. Another strawman. Nobody ever said they were the only values, just that they are important ones, especially when trying to treat mental illness.

by slibhb 4y ago

shkkmo 4y ago

> By demanding a mental health system that keeps people from harm while being perfectly compassionate, you're preferring the utopian social ideal to the possible. Nowhere did I demand perfection, only improvement. Refusing to even try to improve because perfection is impossible is irrational. > It's just too much to ask of doctors, nurses, and orderlies to be compassionate all the time. These people are human beings. That does not mean that we shouldn't find ways to improve the system to allow more compassion to be displayed. The hours and workloads we place on these workers are a significant contributing factor. We have a large problem with burnout, especially among our lower tier healthcare providers. > Mush-brained calls for empathy are a dime a dozen and they lead to failed policies, in SF and elsewhere. Name calling isn't a very effective communication strategy and won't hide the fact that your argument is based on falsehoods and misrepresentation. The ”failed policies” are the ones that created our drug and homelessness crises over that last several decades. The war on drugs is a failed policy, busing homeless is a failed policy, jailing drug addicts is a failed policy. That isn't to say that the new policies don't have problems and won't fail, but we need better options that just sticking with the failed policies that created the problem in the first place.

gsibble 4y ago
Actually, you're kind of off base. The first responders couldn't have been nicer. The firemen, EMTs, and policemen who responded were very kind and courteous. They didn't restrain me in the ambulance or anything. I thought I was being rescued and taken somewhere safe. I was not. It was the mental health infrastructure that was abysmal, not the first responders.
- shkkmo 4y ago
  > The first responders couldn't have been nicer. The firemen, EMTs, and policemen who responded were very kind and courteous. Yes, I mostly agree. Fear of being treated poorly by the EMTs and firemen is not a reason to avoid calling 911. Even many police departments have been doing a much better job about making sure that their officers have a better training and mindset for calls involving mental health crises. There are still enough horror stories about police responses that I would evaluate the track record of your local department when deciding whether to be afraid of them when considering making that 911 call. > It was the mental health infrastructure that was abysmal, not the first responders. This was indeed the intended thrust of my comment. I think fixing the remaining issues with police training and attitude is a much smaller and less important problem than figuring out how to revamp, operate and fund our mental health system more effectively.
  - gsibble 4y ago
    Then we're in total agreement.
slibhb 4y ago
> Treating someone with mental illness effectively requires compassion. If being put on a psychiatric hold is a unnecessarily traumatic experience, you prevent some short term harm while causing long term damage. Not only do you add additional trauma that complicates recovery but you teach those in need of help to hide their suffering as long as possible. This is where you demanded perfection. Empathy and compassion are not the only values and the result of treating them as such is negative.
- shkkmo 4y ago
  > This is where you demanded perfection. There is no call for perfection there. Stop pretending nuance doesn't exist. A system that helps 75% and harms 25% is better than a system that helps 25% and harms 75%. Improving the system so that compassion and empathy are a larger part of the process helps bring us closer to the former than the later for the reasons I explained. You ignored those reasons, and instead tried to attack a strawman... again. If you want to convey your arguments effectively, you need to try to understand what the person you are arguing with is saying rather than insisting they are saying what you want to argue against. > Empathy and compassion are not the only values and the result of treating them as such is negative. Another strawman. Nobody ever said they were the only values, just that they are important ones, especially when trying to treat mental illness.