4 ms·

The article says there are approximately 90 claimants. $11m per victim doesn't sound that outlandish a number. It goes to highlight the enormous scale of the

by slg 4y ago

The article says there are approximately 90 claimants. $11m per victim doesn't sound that outlandish a number. It goes to highlight the enormous scale of the crime that the total amasses to $1b.

giantg2 4y ago
Maybe I'm weird, but $11M still sounds high. It's also not about the damages that the actual perpetrator caused, this seems more like a punitive case against the government.
- newsclues 4y ago
  What is the lifetime median salary for an American? Hard to pin down a figure but say $2million. So taxpayers will pay over 5x the normal lifetime income to the victims. I think there may be an issue with this because I think there is a lot of evil bad stuff that happens and if the government pays for all of it (the trend is to right all injustice), aren’t we risking economic collapse with these massive settlements? If this pays out, there will be more…
  - slg 4y ago
    >I think there is a lot of evil bad stuff that happens They aren't suing because evil bad stuff happened. They are suing because (they believe) the government caused evil bad stuff to happen.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      Not even "caused" but "allowed"
      - slg 4y ago
        A semantic distinction at best. There is no real practical difference from the perspective of a victim. Remember, that is all this is at this point. No verdict has been returned, no settlement reached. These are purely claims from victims.
        giantg2 4y ago
        I beg to differ. There is a huge difference between the person raping you and the other people on the train not getting involved, even from the victim's perspective. From a legal perspective, there are very clear distinctions (criminal vs civil, responsibility by party, etc). https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/suspect-arrested-for-sex-assault-on-el-train-in-upper-darby-septa-says/2993609/ https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/suspect-arrested-...
        slg 4y ago
        From the perspective of a victim, there is also a huge difference between stopping a crime in progress and preventing a crime from ever even being attempted. Being the victim of an attempted crime can still be traumatizing. People likely wouldn't even know if they would have been the victim of a crime that is successfully avoided. Either way, this discussion doesn't matter at this point. As I already said, this is not a legal decision being handed down. These are claims by victims and the accused haven't even responded yet.
  - seo-speedwagon 4y ago
    I consider the current path much, much riskier for society, where qualified immunity and SCOTUS precedent essentially shield cops entirely from the consequences of their misbehavior and malfeasance
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    "The approximately 90 claimants include Biles, Raisman and McKayla Maroney, all Olympic gold medalists," You'll note these aren't normal average Americans that were abused. For those that weren't high profile, many probably had the potential to become elite athletes were it not for the abuse. There is also an argument to be made that their endorsement opportunities were limited due to the controversy surrounding the abuse. I'm sure there is a reticence to put an athlete on your cereal box that is embroiled in a sexual abuse scandal, even though they are the victim. It's just not what you want brought to mind when your customers see your marketing material.
  - spacemanmatt 4y ago
    Damage calculations are part of due process and should never consider "the poor taxpayers" for any purpose. Most or all plaintiffs are taxpayers, too.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      Of course. The interesting part is how the damages are calculated to get to that number.
    - newsclues 4y ago
      But there is not justice to victims or society if the government is bankrupted by the judgement. Money doesn’t erase the harm.
      - spacemanmatt 4y ago
        I don't think that judgments risk bankrupting the government, nor do I believe that bankrupting the government risks denying justice to the victims, or by extension, society. Remembering of course, that victims are the part of society that matters when a judgement is issued in their favor.
        newsclues 4y ago
        If society crumbles who protects the victims? If debt to satisfy settlements, causes the currency to collapse, the settlements to the victims are useless.
        spacemanmatt 4y ago
        Sounds like you are analyzing victim payouts in a vacuum. The society that would ostensibly crumble under the burden of victim settlements was already lost to government that victimized its members. Remember these are the terms the government set forth for itself, which it broke.
- slg 4y ago
  This is the number they are starting at. There is little incentive to start with a lower number. Lawsuits specifically about this crime have already had $1m+ payouts per victim. $11m isn't outlandish given that context.
- SkyMarshal 4y ago
  You’re not wrong, it is a punitive case against the government. It’s also about the actual damages that perpetrator caused, but those are difficult to quantify. I’m sure the prosecution is just starting what they consider to be the high side, knowing there are good odds a judge or jury might reduce it from there, if they win.
- spacemanmatt 4y ago
  Maybe you aren't looking at the loss of $11M earning potential in your career. Trauma can end a person for all practical purposes.
- wmf 4y ago
  Literally killing someone is only valued at $10M. https://www.npr.org/2020/04/23/843310123/how-government-agencies-determine-the-dollar-value-of-human-life https://www.npr.org/2020/04/23/843310123/how-government-agen...
foogazi 4y ago
But the crimes had already happened - is this about pre-crime ?

by slg 4y ago

The article says there are approximately 90 claimants. $11m per victim doesn't sound that outlandish a number. It goes to highlight the enormous scale of the crime that the total amasses to $1b.

giantg2 4y ago

Maybe I'm weird, but $11M still sounds high. It's also not about the damages that the actual perpetrator caused, this seems more like a punitive case against the government.

newsclues 4y ago
What is the lifetime median salary for an American? Hard to pin down a figure but say $2million. So taxpayers will pay over 5x the normal lifetime income to the victims. I think there may be an issue with this because I think there is a lot of evil bad stuff that happens and if the government pays for all of it (the trend is to right all injustice), aren’t we risking economic collapse with these massive settlements? If this pays out, there will be more…
- slg 4y ago
  >I think there is a lot of evil bad stuff that happens They aren't suing because evil bad stuff happened. They are suing because (they believe) the government caused evil bad stuff to happen.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Not even "caused" but "allowed"
    - slg 4y ago
      A semantic distinction at best. There is no real practical difference from the perspective of a victim. Remember, that is all this is at this point. No verdict has been returned, no settlement reached. These are purely claims from victims.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        I beg to differ. There is a huge difference between the person raping you and the other people on the train not getting involved, even from the victim's perspective. From a legal perspective, there are very clear distinctions (criminal vs civil, responsibility by party, etc). https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/suspect-arrested-for-sex-assault-on-el-train-in-upper-darby-septa-says/2993609/ https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/suspect-arrested-...
        slg 4y ago
        From the perspective of a victim, there is also a huge difference between stopping a crime in progress and preventing a crime from ever even being attempted. Being the victim of an attempted crime can still be traumatizing. People likely wouldn't even know if they would have been the victim of a crime that is successfully avoided. Either way, this discussion doesn't matter at this point. As I already said, this is not a legal decision being handed down. These are claims by victims and the accused haven't even responded yet.
- seo-speedwagon 4y ago
  I consider the current path much, much riskier for society, where qualified immunity and SCOTUS precedent essentially shield cops entirely from the consequences of their misbehavior and malfeasance
- jjeaff 4y ago
  "The approximately 90 claimants include Biles, Raisman and McKayla Maroney, all Olympic gold medalists," You'll note these aren't normal average Americans that were abused. For those that weren't high profile, many probably had the potential to become elite athletes were it not for the abuse. There is also an argument to be made that their endorsement opportunities were limited due to the controversy surrounding the abuse. I'm sure there is a reticence to put an athlete on your cereal box that is embroiled in a sexual abuse scandal, even though they are the victim. It's just not what you want brought to mind when your customers see your marketing material.
- spacemanmatt 4y ago
  Damage calculations are part of due process and should never consider "the poor taxpayers" for any purpose. Most or all plaintiffs are taxpayers, too.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Of course. The interesting part is how the damages are calculated to get to that number.
  - newsclues 4y ago
    But there is not justice to victims or society if the government is bankrupted by the judgement. Money doesn’t erase the harm.
    - spacemanmatt 4y ago
      I don't think that judgments risk bankrupting the government, nor do I believe that bankrupting the government risks denying justice to the victims, or by extension, society. Remembering of course, that victims are the part of society that matters when a judgement is issued in their favor.
      - newsclues 4y ago
        If society crumbles who protects the victims? If debt to satisfy settlements, causes the currency to collapse, the settlements to the victims are useless.
        spacemanmatt 4y ago
        Sounds like you are analyzing victim payouts in a vacuum. The society that would ostensibly crumble under the burden of victim settlements was already lost to government that victimized its members. Remember these are the terms the government set forth for itself, which it broke.
slg 4y ago
This is the number they are starting at. There is little incentive to start with a lower number. Lawsuits specifically about this crime have already had $1m+ payouts per victim. $11m isn't outlandish given that context.
SkyMarshal 4y ago
You’re not wrong, it is a punitive case against the government. It’s also about the actual damages that perpetrator caused, but those are difficult to quantify. I’m sure the prosecution is just starting what they consider to be the high side, knowing there are good odds a judge or jury might reduce it from there, if they win.
spacemanmatt 4y ago
Maybe you aren't looking at the loss of $11M earning potential in your career. Trauma can end a person for all practical purposes.
wmf 4y ago
Literally killing someone is only valued at $10M. https://www.npr.org/2020/04/23/843310123/how-government-agencies-determine-the-dollar-value-of-human-life https://www.npr.org/2020/04/23/843310123/how-government-agen...

foogazi 4y ago

But the crimes had already happened - is this about pre-crime ?