4 ms·

> but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. This is said a lot online, but I'd like some con

> but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. This is said a lot online, but I'd like some concrete examples. Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries, and the US left still wants more. Our tax system is more progressive than many European countries, but our rich still need to pay their "fair share." The left in the US wants us to essentially have completely open borders, and there's been a huge pushback to the 'refugees' coming to Europe. There are some things where we're more right than Europe because Republicans or our constitution won't allow it, but that doesn't mean the American left isn't overwhelmingly quite far left. And quite frankly, if you're comparing Republicans to Hitler you're too far left yourself to have a balanced perspective. You could just as easily say something like "The way the Democratic party treats white men in recent years is uncannily similar to how Hitler treated Jews..." Both are ridiculous statements.

dathinab 4y ago
> Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries, The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context. Which is far far more strict then most EU countries. And the current legality status is in a legal gray are as far as I know, which is also worse then in many EU countries, through in practice in some states might not. And sure there are EU countries which are also quite far right. > Our tax system is more progressive than many European countries Progressive is not the same as left/right. I'm not sure a tax system can be left/right at all. But if we look at the usage of taxes than it's a very clear no. > but our rich still need to pay their "fair share." No, not at all. Through sadly that is the case for huge parts of the word. > The left in the US wants us to essentially have completely open borders, and there's been a huge pushback to the 'refugees' coming to Europe. The US (and EU) are a major (but not the only) drivers behind the conflicts leading to the refuges...
- PraetorianGourd 4y ago
  > The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context I will let you in on a little secret. The right doesn't actually want to ban abortions. They need the carrot of banning abortions to turn out voters, and abortion is a very powerful single issue. By this I mean, there are plenty of left-leaning folks who would abandon Bernie if he came out as anti-abortion, and there are plenty on the right who would turn on their candidates if they came out pro-choice. By the same token, the left also needs the right to keep wanting to ban abortions (but failing) so they can turn out the vote. It isn't as binary as it seems.
- travisathougies 4y ago
  > The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context. While it's true that some republican run states are going this direction. If we look at the original case that will likely lead the SC to overturn Roe v Wade (again, it hasn't even happened yet), would be a European style ban, where abortion is allowed up until 15 weeks (this is a typical European cutoff). I believe the Mississippi law also has exceptions based on maternal health or fetal disability, which in countries like Germany, would actually require government approval in the late second and third trimester [1]. After the Roe v Wade leak, only a few GOP states have attempted to ban abortion outright. Popular GOP governors like Ron Desantis, whose name keeps coming up for 2024, signed a Mississippi style 15-week ban in Florida, instead of a full on ban. So, while it's certainly true same in the party want a 100% ban, it's also true that the mainstream ones (again, DeSantis is extremely popular, so is a good indicator of 'centrist' republican thought) are not going that direction and instead making our laws more similar to Western European countries.
  - teachrdan 4y ago
    Totally false. In most western European countries, women can trivially get approved for abortion after 15 weeks. For example, in the UK, if two doctors agree that it would be too damaging for a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, she can get an abortion even after 15 weeks. Compare that to the man you said represents the mainstream of the GOP. Ron DeSantis signed a law banning abortion after 15 weeks "without exemptions for rape, incest or human trafficking. https://www.bpas.org/get-involved/campaigns/briefings/abortion-law/ https://www.bpas.org/get-involved/campaigns/briefings/aborti... https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/14/politics/desantis-signs-abortion-ban-florida/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/14/politics/desantis-signs-a...
    - nomel 4y ago
      Getting approval from a doctor, requiring a justified medical requirement, is not remotely trivial. I think you’re very unfamiliar with what some of the pro-abortion people are pushing in the US.
    - travisathougies 4y ago
MSM 4y ago
>This is said a lot online, but I'd like some concrete examples. I think that really depends on which policies you're considering to determine how liberal or conservative a country is. If you're looking at things like Universal Healthcare, Reproductive Rights (which you mentioned, interestingly- but skirted over the fact that they are likely being rolled back to being illegal at any stage past fertilization in many states- much more conservative than other countries), College tuition, universal basic income or workers rights, the US is objectively conservative.

dathinab 4y ago

> Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries, The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context. Which is far far more strict then most EU countries. And the current legality status is in a legal gray are as far as I know, which is also worse then in many EU countries, through in practice in some states might not. And sure there are EU countries which are also quite far right. > Our tax system is more progressive than many European countries Progressive is not the same as left/right. I'm not sure a tax system can be left/right at all. But if we look at the usage of taxes than it's a very clear no. > but our rich still need to pay their "fair share." No, not at all. Through sadly that is the case for huge parts of the word. > The left in the US wants us to essentially have completely open borders, and there's been a huge pushback to the 'refugees' coming to Europe. The US (and EU) are a major (but not the only) drivers behind the conflicts leading to the refuges...

PraetorianGourd 4y ago
> The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context I will let you in on a little secret. The right doesn't actually want to ban abortions. They need the carrot of banning abortions to turn out voters, and abortion is a very powerful single issue. By this I mean, there are plenty of left-leaning folks who would abandon Bernie if he came out as anti-abortion, and there are plenty on the right who would turn on their candidates if they came out pro-choice. By the same token, the left also needs the right to keep wanting to ban abortions (but failing) so they can turn out the vote. It isn't as binary as it seems.
travisathougies 4y ago
> The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context. While it's true that some republican run states are going this direction. If we look at the original case that will likely lead the SC to overturn Roe v Wade (again, it hasn't even happened yet), would be a European style ban, where abortion is allowed up until 15 weeks (this is a typical European cutoff). I believe the Mississippi law also has exceptions based on maternal health or fetal disability, which in countries like Germany, would actually require government approval in the late second and third trimester [1]. After the Roe v Wade leak, only a few GOP states have attempted to ban abortion outright. Popular GOP governors like Ron Desantis, whose name keeps coming up for 2024, signed a Mississippi style 15-week ban in Florida, instead of a full on ban. So, while it's certainly true same in the party want a 100% ban, it's also true that the mainstream ones (again, DeSantis is extremely popular, so is a good indicator of 'centrist' republican thought) are not going that direction and instead making our laws more similar to Western European countries.
- teachrdan 4y ago
  Totally false. In most western European countries, women can trivially get approved for abortion after 15 weeks. For example, in the UK, if two doctors agree that it would be too damaging for a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, she can get an abortion even after 15 weeks. Compare that to the man you said represents the mainstream of the GOP. Ron DeSantis signed a law banning abortion after 15 weeks "without exemptions for rape, incest or human trafficking. https://www.bpas.org/get-involved/campaigns/briefings/abortion-law/ https://www.bpas.org/get-involved/campaigns/briefings/aborti... https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/14/politics/desantis-signs-abortion-ban-florida/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/14/politics/desantis-signs-a...
  - nomel 4y ago
    Getting approval from a doctor, requiring a justified medical requirement, is not remotely trivial. I think you’re very unfamiliar with what some of the pro-abortion people are pushing in the US.
  - travisathougies 4y ago

MSM 4y ago

>This is said a lot online, but I'd like some concrete examples. I think that really depends on which policies you're considering to determine how liberal or conservative a country is. If you're looking at things like Universal Healthcare, Reproductive Rights (which you mentioned, interestingly- but skirted over the fact that they are likely being rolled back to being illegal at any stage past fertilization in many states- much more conservative than other countries), College tuition, universal basic income or workers rights, the US is objectively conservative.