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I abhor the conspiratorial tendencies of people when considering abuse, especially in the context of powerful people. Abuse is predicated on being able to effec

I abhor the conspiratorial tendencies of people when considering abuse, especially in the context of powerful people. Abuse is predicated on being able to effectively pick victims that the rest of us don’t care about: Epstein et al. don’t need a grand conspiracy to execute their abuse, they just need us normal folk to ensure that there’s a fresh supply of victims. A great example of this in action is the fantasy a lot of people hold that middle class white women are being snatched off the street to be trafficked: they’re not in any volume, most trafficking victims are vulnerable people who nobody notices are missing, but nobody cares about them and so the cycle continues. If we accept that Epstein was just an abuser who killed himself, we have to confront the reality that we enable abuse, and that’s too scary a thought. Driven athletes are the perfect victims, because they feel they have so much to lose if they’re not believed.

superb-owl 4y ago
When Epstein was originally convicted in Florida, it's pretty clear that Higher Powers intervened to get him: * a laughably short sentence * the ability to spend his days _in his home office_ instead of prison * protection from having his victims present at his sentencing https://apnews.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-florida-e2a4431f7319afd037023d9a586aa291 https://apnews.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-florida-e2a4431f7... (edit: victims, not accusers)
- jjeaff 4y ago
  He had a lot of money and he was a well connected, powerful white guy. I think plenty of past experience tells us that you don't need some mysterious higher power to dodge responsibility for criminal behavior if you meet that criteria.
  - troon-lover 4y ago
  - superb-owl 4y ago
    I think this is more semantics than anything. I used "Higher Power" in a slightly tongue-in-cheek way. Obviously there were one or more people who Epstein was "connected" to, who pulled the right strings, not some sinister black-robed cabal that meets every Tuesday to discuss their plans for world domination. The mystery is exactly who these people are, and what kinds of pressure were applied to get them to act this way. Was it a courtesy to a friend? Blackmail? A quid-pro-quo? The world is dominated by hidden, informal power structures (friendships, alliances, etc). They are quite normal and natural, but at the highest levels can lead to the same kinds of anti-democratic, anti-social outcomes you'd expect from a sinister black-robed cabal. C.S. Lewis did a good job describing this dynamic: https://www.lewissociety.org/innerring/ https://www.lewissociety.org/innerring/
    - jjeaff 4y ago
      I take your point. But I think the people that helped him avoid prosecution are mostly right out in the open. Several very highly paid attorneys, including Alan Dershowitz, who was lobbying his contacts behind the scenes (it seems he may have had personal motivation to help his client get a lenient sentence). And then we have Alexander Acosta, the US Attorney who has claimed he persued a lenient sentence because some "higher ups" in government told him to. Which seems about as flimsy as an excuse gets unless/until he reveals who these "higher ups" were.
pc86 4y ago
I have never once heard it suggested that "middle class white women" are kidnapped off the street and trafficked in any volume. I've only ever heard it spoken about in terms of (mostly adolescent/very young) homeless people, immigrants, prostitutes, etc. As you said, people who for the most part are not noticed when they go missing.
- stouset 4y ago
  It’s been a weirdly prevalent theme in conservative political circles the past several years.
  - robonerd 4y ago
    The only trafficking I've heard conservatives talk a lot about is trafficking of kids, particularly Epstein, Rotherham rape gangs, and also deep-end stuff like pizzagate. Conservatives being outspoken about trafficking of middle class women is news to me.
    - stouset 4y ago
      There's a ton of fearmongering over people getting snatched up off the streets and being brought into trafficking in QAnon circles.
- dkarl 4y ago
  There was a "white slavery" panic back in the day, a century or more ago. It was mostly driven by the puritanical assumption that any woman engaging in sex work must be imprisoned against her will, but it often went hand-in-hand with racism towards the supposed perpetrators. I think the idea that random middle-class people were abducted off the street and forced into prostitution hasn't been mainstream in a long, long time, but it seems like a perfect fit for the current appetite for right-wing fantasy, so I won't be surprised if we start hearing about it again.
smolder 4y ago
I think it's a bit crazy to take for granted that Epstein abused those girls alone and didn't involve any of his rich and powerful associations in it, beyond Ghislaine. I'm not convinced by your line about people being scared of the thought they enable abuse. Many are reasonably scared that Epstein had associates who, in the end, got away with it. I don't assume it's true but consider it a distinct possibility and perhaps even likely.
- curun1r 4y ago
  It feels extremely likely that there were many other powerful people who were involved. The fact that many of them (Dershowitz, Trump, Prince Andrew) were publicly accused at a time before the Miami Herald’s reporting made all this common knowledge feels pretty damn credible. I find it highly unlikely that these multiple women could independently fabricate similar stories that then perfectly align with information and photographs that subsequently emerge once the media started digging. The fact that Epstein’s original deal contained a ridiculous provision that shut down any FBI investigation into co-conspirators just seems to confirm that there were, in fact, co-conspirators. Otherwise there would have been no reason to put that in the agreement.
  - smolder 4y ago
    Oh wow, I didn't know about that provision. It makes more sense that no one else was charged, knowing that. It's disappointing, too.
colpabar 4y ago
What about something like the penn state football scandal? Wasn't that a conspiracy, given that the leaders of an organization knew about the abuse, and let it slide? I also just have to say that if you really think Epstein killed himself, and that all the horrible things he (and all his ultra wealthy friends) did is our fault, then you are uninformed or naive.
giantg2 4y ago
I'm generally not one to believe conspiracies. Usually incompetence is a much bigger factor. But there comes a point when the coincidences add up and the idea of it being a conspiracy becomes a legitimate possibility. For example, all the things that had to add up to get to the hanging with equipment failures. Then a related person was hanged in a French jail... again with the security cams not working. And there are enough powerful people linked that it could be feasible for one of them to order this. All the factors lining up once is a coincidence. Twice is a pattern. That's not proof, but it does increase the likelihood to a reasonable point of investigating that angle.

superb-owl 4y ago

When Epstein was originally convicted in Florida, it's pretty clear that Higher Powers intervened to get him: * a laughably short sentence * the ability to spend his days _in his home office_ instead of prison * protection from having his victims present at his sentencing https://apnews.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-florida-e2a4431f7319afd037023d9a586aa291 https://apnews.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-florida-e2a4431f7... (edit: victims, not accusers)

jjeaff 4y ago
He had a lot of money and he was a well connected, powerful white guy. I think plenty of past experience tells us that you don't need some mysterious higher power to dodge responsibility for criminal behavior if you meet that criteria.
- troon-lover 4y ago
- superb-owl 4y ago
  I think this is more semantics than anything. I used "Higher Power" in a slightly tongue-in-cheek way. Obviously there were one or more people who Epstein was "connected" to, who pulled the right strings, not some sinister black-robed cabal that meets every Tuesday to discuss their plans for world domination. The mystery is exactly who these people are, and what kinds of pressure were applied to get them to act this way. Was it a courtesy to a friend? Blackmail? A quid-pro-quo? The world is dominated by hidden, informal power structures (friendships, alliances, etc). They are quite normal and natural, but at the highest levels can lead to the same kinds of anti-democratic, anti-social outcomes you'd expect from a sinister black-robed cabal. C.S. Lewis did a good job describing this dynamic: https://www.lewissociety.org/innerring/ https://www.lewissociety.org/innerring/
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    I take your point. But I think the people that helped him avoid prosecution are mostly right out in the open. Several very highly paid attorneys, including Alan Dershowitz, who was lobbying his contacts behind the scenes (it seems he may have had personal motivation to help his client get a lenient sentence). And then we have Alexander Acosta, the US Attorney who has claimed he persued a lenient sentence because some "higher ups" in government told him to. Which seems about as flimsy as an excuse gets unless/until he reveals who these "higher ups" were.

pc86 4y ago

I have never once heard it suggested that "middle class white women" are kidnapped off the street and trafficked in any volume. I've only ever heard it spoken about in terms of (mostly adolescent/very young) homeless people, immigrants, prostitutes, etc. As you said, people who for the most part are not noticed when they go missing.

stouset 4y ago
It’s been a weirdly prevalent theme in conservative political circles the past several years.
- robonerd 4y ago
  The only trafficking I've heard conservatives talk a lot about is trafficking of kids, particularly Epstein, Rotherham rape gangs, and also deep-end stuff like pizzagate. Conservatives being outspoken about trafficking of middle class women is news to me.
  - stouset 4y ago
    There's a ton of fearmongering over people getting snatched up off the streets and being brought into trafficking in QAnon circles.
dkarl 4y ago
There was a "white slavery" panic back in the day, a century or more ago. It was mostly driven by the puritanical assumption that any woman engaging in sex work must be imprisoned against her will, but it often went hand-in-hand with racism towards the supposed perpetrators. I think the idea that random middle-class people were abducted off the street and forced into prostitution hasn't been mainstream in a long, long time, but it seems like a perfect fit for the current appetite for right-wing fantasy, so I won't be surprised if we start hearing about it again.

smolder 4y ago

I think it's a bit crazy to take for granted that Epstein abused those girls alone and didn't involve any of his rich and powerful associations in it, beyond Ghislaine. I'm not convinced by your line about people being scared of the thought they enable abuse. Many are reasonably scared that Epstein had associates who, in the end, got away with it. I don't assume it's true but consider it a distinct possibility and perhaps even likely.

curun1r 4y ago
It feels extremely likely that there were many other powerful people who were involved. The fact that many of them (Dershowitz, Trump, Prince Andrew) were publicly accused at a time before the Miami Herald’s reporting made all this common knowledge feels pretty damn credible. I find it highly unlikely that these multiple women could independently fabricate similar stories that then perfectly align with information and photographs that subsequently emerge once the media started digging. The fact that Epstein’s original deal contained a ridiculous provision that shut down any FBI investigation into co-conspirators just seems to confirm that there were, in fact, co-conspirators. Otherwise there would have been no reason to put that in the agreement.
- smolder 4y ago
  Oh wow, I didn't know about that provision. It makes more sense that no one else was charged, knowing that. It's disappointing, too.

colpabar 4y ago

What about something like the penn state football scandal? Wasn't that a conspiracy, given that the leaders of an organization knew about the abuse, and let it slide? I also just have to say that if you really think Epstein killed himself, and that all the horrible things he (and all his ultra wealthy friends) did is our fault, then you are uninformed or naive.

giantg2 4y ago

I'm generally not one to believe conspiracies. Usually incompetence is a much bigger factor. But there comes a point when the coincidences add up and the idea of it being a conspiracy becomes a legitimate possibility. For example, all the things that had to add up to get to the hanging with equipment failures. Then a related person was hanged in a French jail... again with the security cams not working. And there are enough powerful people linked that it could be feasible for one of them to order this. All the factors lining up once is a coincidence. Twice is a pattern. That's not proof, but it does increase the likelihood to a reasonable point of investigating that angle.