6 ms·

What about the danger to birds? That is much more concerning than mere appearance.

ls15 4y ago
More than 30 times as many birds are killed by automobiles. The number for pesticides is similar. More than 50 times as many are killed by buildings. More than 300 times as many are killed by cats. https://www.energymonitor.ai/tech/renewables/weekly-data-how-many-birds-are-really-killed-by-wind-turbines https://www.energymonitor.ai/tech/renewables/weekly-data-how...
- kebman 4y ago
  The fact that birds are killed in other places is not an argument for making more bird-killing structures when it can be avoided. Especially when the kinds of birds they tend to kill are endangered birds of prey. That is unless the number of bird deaths it causes are negligible.
  - JoeAltmaier 4y ago
    Yes, it is. We have lots of needs in an industrial society. Torpedoing one effort for marginal benefit when work elsewhere would benefit much more, is astonishingly damaging and wasteful.
    - kebman 4y ago
      No, it definitively isn't! If it was your intention to mention societal needs for wind power this entire time, then why didn't you? If you don't mention the societal needs, and merely make unsupported claims that "windows kill birds," then you are being woefully disingenuous. Because windows do not kill eagles, but wind farms do! This is an important distinction which your blanket statement does not cover. As for what's marginal, damaging or wasteful, then why is Germany supporting the construction of a woefully and inadequate technology when they have a much better alterative: Nuclear power?
      - JoeAltmaier 4y ago
        Hm. My first comment here but ok. All electricity generation is for societal needs. And those eagles? One unfortunate incident, fixed by decommissioning one tower?
      - ls15 4y ago
        > why is Germany supporting the construction of a woefully and inadequate technology when they have a much better alterative: Nuclear power? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germa... The Green Party is a result of the Anti-nuclear movement in Germany. They need to do a 180 first, before nuclear in Germany can happen again. That probably happens in the next three months...
fredoliveira 4y ago
As far as I know, there is no data to back up the claim that they are a danger to birds. But it was a Trump talking point, I guess.
- kebman 4y ago
  I guess several videos and images of it isn't convincing then? But yeah, you're right, if Trump mentioned it, then they were obviously just made up.
doikor 4y ago
Cats (as in the pet kind) kill way more bird than windmills will ever manage to. In the US alone over 2 billion every year. As others have pointed out bats are actually much more in danger of windmills then birds. And they got lots of other problems too (White-nose syndrome)
- kebman 4y ago
  Do cats kill eagles and endangered birds of prey?
  - doikor 4y ago
    Not directly but a lot of birds of prey eat other smaller birds which cats do kill in large numbers. Most birds of prey (well just about any predator species really) are usually endangered not because we directly kill them directly but because we destroy their ability to eat either by destroying the environment they hunt in or lower the amount of prey species available for them. There are some exceptions like wolves, etc that kill livestock and thus farmers will hunt them usually to the point of wiping out the local population if given the opportunity.
chki 4y ago
That's a red herring. The danger to birds has been shown to be almost negligible when compared to other concrete structures, cars, cats etc. Birds will get killed by a lot of things, it's not reasonable to draw the line at this point.
- blisterpeanuts 4y ago
  The Audubon Society notes that hundreds of thousands of birds are killed flying into windmills in the U.S. every year. They predict that it will increase into the tens of millions, as more windmills are constructed. Perhaps that number is "negligible" in a relative sense, but why kill birds at all? We should be working to increase the bird population, not adding more ways to kill them. I'm not an expert, but just a bit of web searching has turned up some alarming studies and predictions. Maybe they're exaggerated; maybe they're one-sided. But it seems to me the problem shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand. Birds eat ticks and other pests. 50 years ago, flocks of birds were much larger. Huge swarms of birds would descend on a pasture or a green grass yard and pretty much eat all the bugs. This is a beneficial thing.
  - cedilla 4y ago
    As the Audubon Society notes, the number is dwarfed by the number of birds killed by house cats and building collisions. But there are even greater threats to birds, like increased use of pesticide and above all - climate change. Stopping wind power expansion because of the birds that die in collisions is like not extinguishing a building on fire because of fears of the damage the water will do to the building. That said, many laws include provisions to minimise the harm to birds and bats. Including the German one under discussion.
rwoerz 4y ago
Neglectable compared to other manmade perils like windows.
- kebman 4y ago
  Do windows kill eagles?
squarefoot 4y ago
They're actively working on that problem. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200302-how-do-wind-farms-affect-bats-birds-and-other-wildlife https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200302-how-do-wind-farm... https://www.treehugger.com/ways-to-protect-bats-and-birds-from-wind-turbines-4868663 https://www.treehugger.com/ways-to-protect-bats-and-birds-fr... Apparently, transparent buildings kill a lot more birds than wind farms do.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bryanlarsen 4y ago
Climate change will kill way more birds than windmills ever will.
JoeAltmaier 4y ago
I think that danger is overstated. One or two unfortunately-positioned windmills were dangerous to some birds' flyway. Other than that, there are no more dead birds under a windmill than anyplace else. Such a study was posted here on HN no too long ago.
arrrg 4y ago
German regulation on wind turbines does not and will not in the future ignore birds. Absolutist statements aren’t very helpful in that context. Obviously wind turbines do kill birds. The correct consequence of that fact is not to never build wind turbines. It’s to find the right trade off between protecting birds, while still preserving the ability to have a shot at the needed energy transformation. Bird killings just aren’t bad enough or frequent enough to justify that. What specific issue do you take with the way this change proposes to deal with birds?

ls15 4y ago

More than 30 times as many birds are killed by automobiles. The number for pesticides is similar. More than 50 times as many are killed by buildings. More than 300 times as many are killed by cats. https://www.energymonitor.ai/tech/renewables/weekly-data-how-many-birds-are-really-killed-by-wind-turbines https://www.energymonitor.ai/tech/renewables/weekly-data-how...

kebman 4y ago
The fact that birds are killed in other places is not an argument for making more bird-killing structures when it can be avoided. Especially when the kinds of birds they tend to kill are endangered birds of prey. That is unless the number of bird deaths it causes are negligible.
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  Yes, it is. We have lots of needs in an industrial society. Torpedoing one effort for marginal benefit when work elsewhere would benefit much more, is astonishingly damaging and wasteful.
  - kebman 4y ago
    No, it definitively isn't! If it was your intention to mention societal needs for wind power this entire time, then why didn't you? If you don't mention the societal needs, and merely make unsupported claims that "windows kill birds," then you are being woefully disingenuous. Because windows do not kill eagles, but wind farms do! This is an important distinction which your blanket statement does not cover. As for what's marginal, damaging or wasteful, then why is Germany supporting the construction of a woefully and inadequate technology when they have a much better alterative: Nuclear power?
    - JoeAltmaier 4y ago
      Hm. My first comment here but ok. All electricity generation is for societal needs. And those eagles? One unfortunate incident, fixed by decommissioning one tower?
    - ls15 4y ago
      > why is Germany supporting the construction of a woefully and inadequate technology when they have a much better alterative: Nuclear power? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germa... The Green Party is a result of the Anti-nuclear movement in Germany. They need to do a 180 first, before nuclear in Germany can happen again. That probably happens in the next three months...

fredoliveira 4y ago

As far as I know, there is no data to back up the claim that they are a danger to birds. But it was a Trump talking point, I guess.

kebman 4y ago
I guess several videos and images of it isn't convincing then? But yeah, you're right, if Trump mentioned it, then they were obviously just made up.

doikor 4y ago

Cats (as in the pet kind) kill way more bird than windmills will ever manage to. In the US alone over 2 billion every year. As others have pointed out bats are actually much more in danger of windmills then birds. And they got lots of other problems too (White-nose syndrome)

kebman 4y ago
Do cats kill eagles and endangered birds of prey?
- doikor 4y ago
  Not directly but a lot of birds of prey eat other smaller birds which cats do kill in large numbers. Most birds of prey (well just about any predator species really) are usually endangered not because we directly kill them directly but because we destroy their ability to eat either by destroying the environment they hunt in or lower the amount of prey species available for them. There are some exceptions like wolves, etc that kill livestock and thus farmers will hunt them usually to the point of wiping out the local population if given the opportunity.

chki 4y ago

That's a red herring. The danger to birds has been shown to be almost negligible when compared to other concrete structures, cars, cats etc. Birds will get killed by a lot of things, it's not reasonable to draw the line at this point.

blisterpeanuts 4y ago
The Audubon Society notes that hundreds of thousands of birds are killed flying into windmills in the U.S. every year. They predict that it will increase into the tens of millions, as more windmills are constructed. Perhaps that number is "negligible" in a relative sense, but why kill birds at all? We should be working to increase the bird population, not adding more ways to kill them. I'm not an expert, but just a bit of web searching has turned up some alarming studies and predictions. Maybe they're exaggerated; maybe they're one-sided. But it seems to me the problem shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand. Birds eat ticks and other pests. 50 years ago, flocks of birds were much larger. Huge swarms of birds would descend on a pasture or a green grass yard and pretty much eat all the bugs. This is a beneficial thing.
- cedilla 4y ago
  As the Audubon Society notes, the number is dwarfed by the number of birds killed by house cats and building collisions. But there are even greater threats to birds, like increased use of pesticide and above all - climate change. Stopping wind power expansion because of the birds that die in collisions is like not extinguishing a building on fire because of fears of the damage the water will do to the building. That said, many laws include provisions to minimise the harm to birds and bats. Including the German one under discussion.

rwoerz 4y ago

Neglectable compared to other manmade perils like windows.

kebman 4y ago
Do windows kill eagles?

squarefoot 4y ago

They're actively working on that problem. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200302-how-do-wind-farms-affect-bats-birds-and-other-wildlife https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200302-how-do-wind-farm... https://www.treehugger.com/ways-to-protect-bats-and-birds-from-wind-turbines-4868663 https://www.treehugger.com/ways-to-protect-bats-and-birds-fr... Apparently, transparent buildings kill a lot more birds than wind farms do.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bryanlarsen 4y ago

Climate change will kill way more birds than windmills ever will.

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

I think that danger is overstated. One or two unfortunately-positioned windmills were dangerous to some birds' flyway. Other than that, there are no more dead birds under a windmill than anyplace else. Such a study was posted here on HN no too long ago.

arrrg 4y ago

German regulation on wind turbines does not and will not in the future ignore birds. Absolutist statements aren’t very helpful in that context. Obviously wind turbines do kill birds. The correct consequence of that fact is not to never build wind turbines. It’s to find the right trade off between protecting birds, while still preserving the ability to have a shot at the needed energy transformation. Bird killings just aren’t bad enough or frequent enough to justify that. What specific issue do you take with the way this change proposes to deal with birds?