5 ms·

>> A couple of years ago, one of my friends saw a man staggering down the street, bleeding. She recognized him as someone who regularly slept outside in the nei

>> A couple of years ago, one of my friends saw a man staggering down the street, bleeding. She recognized him as someone who regularly slept outside in the neighborhood, and called 911. Paramedics and police arrived and began treating him, but members of a homeless advocacy group noticed and intervened. They told the man that he didn’t have to get into the ambulance, that he had the right to refuse treatment. So that’s what he did. The paramedics left; the activists left. The man sat on the sidewalk alone, still bleeding. A few months later, he died about a block away. This is appalling. What kind of morons are in this advocacy group? If you're going to talk him out of getting 'official' help the least you can do is help him yourself.

mariusmg 4y ago
>What kind of morons are in this advocacy group? Same type of morons which "advised" people to not get to the hospital to get treated for COVID because the doctors will kill them, harvest their organs and send them to the aliens. This world is filled with idiots.
- NDizzle 4y ago
seaourfreed 4y ago
This and all of the posts below show SF as a failed city. I work in tech and I'd never move there. Failed = "good people" doing things to cause more problems, which you illustrate very well
mistrial9 4y ago
this is a pendulum-swing reversal of a previous era where you could be institutionalized without redress. Similar arguments (rightly) are going on about the seriously-mentally ill. Another part of it is that super powerful painkillers are readily available and highly addictive. Like the crack "epidemic" in the 1980s, these drugs are so strong and pervasive that it visibly changes whole cities.
pkulak 4y ago
Are we really taking that story at face value?
bena 4y ago
This is a weird one. The activist is right. The man did not have to get into the ambulance. He did have the right to refuse treatment. That is literally his right. He gets the decision on whether or not to get treatment for his injuries. The man then exercised those rights. Now, he may not have exercised them in a way you agreed with, or even in a way that was beneficial, but it was still his choice. And there's good reason why the homeless don't trust police and other emergency services. The fact that the man died a few months later is almost inconsequential. But it's tied into the story to make it seem like a correlation. The man refused treatment, therefore he died (a few months later a block away).
- basisword 4y ago
  They persuaded a vulnerable person not to receive medical care. There's no mental dance you can do that will make that ethical to me. He wasn't being arrested or harassed, he was being offered care.
  - bena 4y ago
    That's not what the story says. Why do you say the activists were "persuading" the homeless man, but the EMTs were "offering" care. In the story itself, it says the EMTs were actively treating him. Not offering to treat him, just straight to it. No mention of them even asking if it was ok to treat him. In the story itself, it also says the activists just told the man his options. Nothing in that story indicates they tried to convince him of one option or the other, only that he had them. You're the one doing a waltz here trying to add things to the story as presented.
    - mistrial9 4y ago
      In medicine there are always trade-offs, tough situation here -- I have some experience dealing with people on the street in this locale.. What others do not realize is that the actual experience of being arrested for your own good, can do a lot of harm and is certainly dirty and harsh. Overall new guidelines are needed.
    - 4y ago
gsibble 4y ago
To be perfectly fair, as someone who had a suicide attempt in SF and was held under a 5150 at SF general, what came after the attempt was much, much, much worse than the attempt itself. Inpatient mental health treatment and healthcare in SF in general is abysmal and horrifying. Myself, along with what felt like half of the homeless population in SF, was put in a large gymnasium filled to the brim and given a 1/2" foam cot for 72 hours with no water, food, treatment, access to a phone, or access to counsel. It was much worse than being arrested, especially for someone who had just suffered a mental break. I made two mental notes. One, if I ever got to that point again, not to fail, and two, if I did try, definitely not to call 911. They aren't your friends. The movie depiction of gently waking up in a sunshine filled private hospital room with your family there waiting for you to support you after a failed suicide attempt could not possibly be further from the truth. You wake up in literal HELL ON EARTH and immediately wish you had succeeded and regret calling 911.
- slibhb 4y ago
  > I made two mental notes. One, if I ever got to that point again, not to fail, and two, if I did try, definitely not to call 911. They aren't your friends. This is exactly the kind of progressive-libertarianism the article is arguing against. As if we should tolerate suicides to avoid infringing on the rights of the suicidal. And of course emergency services aren't your friends. They're supposed to prevent you from harm not be nice to you. It would be lovely if they could do both but interacting with unwell, pyschotic, sometimes violent people takes a major toll. There aren't many people who can do those jobs without compartmentalizing their emotions.
  - gsibble 4y ago
    Well, hear me and hear me well, the movie depiction of waking up in a clean hospital room after a failed suicide attempt with your family there to support you is basically the polar opposite of reality. You wake up in HELL and immediately regret your decision to call 911.
  - shkkmo 4y ago
    > They're supposed to prevent you from harm not be nice to you. Treating someone with mental illness effectively requires compassion. If being put on a psychiatric hold is a unnecessarily traumatic experience, you prevent some short term harm while causing long term damage. Not only do you add additional trauma that complicates recovery but you teach those in need of help to hide their suffering as long as possible. > There aren't many people who can do those jobs without compartmentalizing their emotions. So let's pay them well and not overwork them while holding to high standards for how they treat the vulnerable people in their care. > This is exactly the kind of progressive-libertarianism the article is arguing against. As if we should tolerate suicides to avoid infringing on the rights of the suicidal. Not only are you misconstruing the point of the comment you are replying to, your response lacks a single drop of empathy for those affected, including the commentor who shared a painful and personal experience. Please try to practice more empathy, it might help you think of better solutions rather than just defending decades-old failed policies that created our current crisis.
absolutelymild 4y ago

mariusmg 4y ago

>What kind of morons are in this advocacy group? Same type of morons which "advised" people to not get to the hospital to get treated for COVID because the doctors will kill them, harvest their organs and send them to the aliens. This world is filled with idiots.

NDizzle 4y ago

seaourfreed 4y ago

This and all of the posts below show SF as a failed city. I work in tech and I'd never move there. Failed = "good people" doing things to cause more problems, which you illustrate very well

mistrial9 4y ago

this is a pendulum-swing reversal of a previous era where you could be institutionalized without redress. Similar arguments (rightly) are going on about the seriously-mentally ill. Another part of it is that super powerful painkillers are readily available and highly addictive. Like the crack "epidemic" in the 1980s, these drugs are so strong and pervasive that it visibly changes whole cities.

pkulak 4y ago

Are we really taking that story at face value?

bena 4y ago

This is a weird one. The activist is right. The man did not have to get into the ambulance. He did have the right to refuse treatment. That is literally his right. He gets the decision on whether or not to get treatment for his injuries. The man then exercised those rights. Now, he may not have exercised them in a way you agreed with, or even in a way that was beneficial, but it was still his choice. And there's good reason why the homeless don't trust police and other emergency services. The fact that the man died a few months later is almost inconsequential. But it's tied into the story to make it seem like a correlation. The man refused treatment, therefore he died (a few months later a block away).

basisword 4y ago
They persuaded a vulnerable person not to receive medical care. There's no mental dance you can do that will make that ethical to me. He wasn't being arrested or harassed, he was being offered care.
- bena 4y ago
  That's not what the story says. Why do you say the activists were "persuading" the homeless man, but the EMTs were "offering" care. In the story itself, it says the EMTs were actively treating him. Not offering to treat him, just straight to it. No mention of them even asking if it was ok to treat him. In the story itself, it also says the activists just told the man his options. Nothing in that story indicates they tried to convince him of one option or the other, only that he had them. You're the one doing a waltz here trying to add things to the story as presented.
  - mistrial9 4y ago
    In medicine there are always trade-offs, tough situation here -- I have some experience dealing with people on the street in this locale.. What others do not realize is that the actual experience of being arrested for your own good, can do a lot of harm and is certainly dirty and harsh. Overall new guidelines are needed.
  - 4y ago

gsibble 4y ago

To be perfectly fair, as someone who had a suicide attempt in SF and was held under a 5150 at SF general, what came after the attempt was much, much, much worse than the attempt itself. Inpatient mental health treatment and healthcare in SF in general is abysmal and horrifying. Myself, along with what felt like half of the homeless population in SF, was put in a large gymnasium filled to the brim and given a 1/2" foam cot for 72 hours with no water, food, treatment, access to a phone, or access to counsel. It was much worse than being arrested, especially for someone who had just suffered a mental break. I made two mental notes. One, if I ever got to that point again, not to fail, and two, if I did try, definitely not to call 911. They aren't your friends. The movie depiction of gently waking up in a sunshine filled private hospital room with your family there waiting for you to support you after a failed suicide attempt could not possibly be further from the truth. You wake up in literal HELL ON EARTH and immediately wish you had succeeded and regret calling 911.

slibhb 4y ago
> I made two mental notes. One, if I ever got to that point again, not to fail, and two, if I did try, definitely not to call 911. They aren't your friends. This is exactly the kind of progressive-libertarianism the article is arguing against. As if we should tolerate suicides to avoid infringing on the rights of the suicidal. And of course emergency services aren't your friends. They're supposed to prevent you from harm not be nice to you. It would be lovely if they could do both but interacting with unwell, pyschotic, sometimes violent people takes a major toll. There aren't many people who can do those jobs without compartmentalizing their emotions.
- gsibble 4y ago
  Well, hear me and hear me well, the movie depiction of waking up in a clean hospital room after a failed suicide attempt with your family there to support you is basically the polar opposite of reality. You wake up in HELL and immediately regret your decision to call 911.
- shkkmo 4y ago
  > They're supposed to prevent you from harm not be nice to you. Treating someone with mental illness effectively requires compassion. If being put on a psychiatric hold is a unnecessarily traumatic experience, you prevent some short term harm while causing long term damage. Not only do you add additional trauma that complicates recovery but you teach those in need of help to hide their suffering as long as possible. > There aren't many people who can do those jobs without compartmentalizing their emotions. So let's pay them well and not overwork them while holding to high standards for how they treat the vulnerable people in their care. > This is exactly the kind of progressive-libertarianism the article is arguing against. As if we should tolerate suicides to avoid infringing on the rights of the suicidal. Not only are you misconstruing the point of the comment you are replying to, your response lacks a single drop of empathy for those affected, including the commentor who shared a painful and personal experience. Please try to practice more empathy, it might help you think of better solutions rather than just defending decades-old failed policies that created our current crisis.

absolutelymild 4y ago