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(I'm not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Speak to a lawyer.) One thing I don't think you should do is quit. That will absolve Tesla of all unemployment res

(I'm not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Speak to a lawyer.) One thing I don't think you should do is quit. That will absolve Tesla of all unemployment responsibilities, potentially severance, etc. If they want to fire you, make them do it. I think you should save this email (print a couple of copies too). You do not need to "make a decision" - just tell them you're happy to come to the office but due to personal obligations you cannot do so until January 2023 and leave it at that. Continue to reiterate this to Tesla. Tesla likely wants you to "make a decision" (and is pressuring you) so that you voluntarily quit and they don't owe you anything. Continue to do your job during your normal work hours. Respond to emails and instant messages. If you lose access to a system, send an email and ask to have access restored so you can continue to work. Document these interactions. -edit- Continue to work, even if they appear to "ghost" you. If you lose all of your system access, send emails and call phone numbers and document each of these interactions. Depending on how far you take this and how far things go, you may be able to recoup wages. For example: (Thursday, June 9th 2022 8:55 am, called my manager's phone and asked if they could assist in restoring access to my email account). Also, check out the HN Who is Hiring thread :)

tharne 4y ago
This is very excellent "non-advice". OP would do well to take it. Document everything, keep hard copies, and don't quit. -- edit -- Your employers EAP program should typically offer free legal consultations with a lawyer they recommend. EAP calls are typically keep private from your employer.
- sumeno 4y ago
  I would not use an EAP program for an employment dispute. While it is supposed to be confidential there have been cases of confidential information getting back to the employer. Considering we're talking about Tesla and Elon Musk I think the last thing in the world I would want to do would be to go up against them with a lawyer that was paid and recommended by Tesla.
  - taylodl 4y ago
    Oh sure, you'll likely lose the case - but you're going to give Elon Musk and Tesla a black eye in the process. It's a PR nightmare Tesla would be wise to avoid, but Elon Musk is capricious so who knows?
- KabukiOrigin 4y ago
  EAP Legal programs almost always have specific clauses preventing their use against the employer. Get your own lawyer. A prepaid legal plan can be a cost-effective way to start this.
preinheimer 4y ago
One more note here, Tesla has also announced they want to drop 10% of staff. Normally this sort of thing involves severance packages, notifying agencies about upcoming reductions, actually making decisions, etc. One view here is that if Musk can convince 10% of their staff to quit with this announcement he'll save lots of money (by not paying severance packages and other stuff)! He's got lots of money, you don't need to save it for him.
- basisword 4y ago
  It's usually not worth claiming it, but it seems like there is an argument for constructive dismissal here.
  - nikolaedison 4y ago
    Why is it usually not worth claiming it? The payout is small if one succeeds in arguing it?
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    what would be the point? Isn't constructive dismissal just a way to get unemployment, and you would get unemployment anyways with a layoff or involuntary termination?
    - gamblor956 4y ago
      That is the point: if an employee quits, they're not entitled to unemployment. However, if they were "constructively dismissed" that is treated as a layoff/involuntary termination and the employee can get unemployment. Note that the OP mentioned that their remote work agreement was voided. They weren't constructively dismissed, it sounds like they were actually terminated. (A company can't simply decide to unilaterally void part of an employment agreement without voiding the entire agreement. That's not how contracts work. )
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
ryandvm 4y ago
I don't know what Tesla pay is like, but man, you really have to be guzzling the Kool-Aid to stay employed there. Crunching crazy hours, having some asshole guilt you for PTO, working for the world's unfunniest meme Lord, etc. Somehow, I have the feeling they're going to have no problem shedding 10% of their workforce this year...
- halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
  Is it really hard to see why people would want to work there, morally? The goal of playing a part in sustainable/renewable energy is pretty noble.
  - Something1234 4y ago
    That is such a freaking joke. Personal automobiles are the worse possible thing for the environment. End cars. Let's get real public transit back. Hyperloop is a lie to kill existing public transit efforts. So many people have documented that so many things have issues. Yes electric cars are good, but not much better than Plugin Hybrids.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Entire countries have been developed around the car. It’s tone deaf to ignore that and think they’re going away anytime in the next half century, demanding public transportation replace them. Urban planning and refactoring takes significant time. The US shrugs at such an idea and keeps buying 17 million cars a year. Even Norway buys cars (although most are electric cars now). When cars are sold, they should be EVs.
    - Karsteski 4y ago
      > End cars I guess those of us that live in rural areas should just bike 100s of km everywhere then. It's always amusing to see these hyperbolic, clearly unrealistic statements on here. I wonder what's going through the head of someone like you...
      - 4y ago
fsociety 4y ago
This is the money advice. I had an issue vaguely like this with an employer. The advice I received was, don’t tell them you have a lawyer unless the lawyer says to, don’t quit or let them make decisions for you, and if you are unsure draw things out. While doing these things you should probably find a lawyer to help you out.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Vladimof 4y ago
I wish I would have read this advice years ago...
gamblor956 4y ago
Agreed, don't quit. It sounds like you have an actual employment agreement saying your position is remote. If that's the case, and your agreement has suddenly been "voided", then technically you were just laid off, and Tesla owes you severance (if that was part of your agreement). The point of Elon Musk demanding that everyone work from the office is to try to make it the employee's decision to leave the company, rather than the company laying them off. Because if the employee leaves, the employee is not entitled to unemployment (or severance, if that is part of their employment agreement). However, terminations by the employer are covered by state and federal labor laws, and generally Tesla would owe unemployment for all terminated employees, and severance if that is part of their employment agreement. (And mass terminations such as this one are additionally governed by the WARN Act.)
xtiansimon 4y ago
“One thing I don't think you should do is quit.” Second. Under most circumstances, if you quit a job, you are not entitled to state Unemployment Insurance. Not sure if this is what you’re referring to as ‘severance’ (what I usually think of as granted by the largesse of the employer).
bradgessler 4y ago
Also start interviewing elsewhere. Life is too short to work at a place like that with your talents. There’s many other companies that would happily put your skills to use under better working conditions.

tharne 4y ago

This is very excellent "non-advice". OP would do well to take it. Document everything, keep hard copies, and don't quit. -- edit -- Your employers EAP program should typically offer free legal consultations with a lawyer they recommend. EAP calls are typically keep private from your employer.

sumeno 4y ago
I would not use an EAP program for an employment dispute. While it is supposed to be confidential there have been cases of confidential information getting back to the employer. Considering we're talking about Tesla and Elon Musk I think the last thing in the world I would want to do would be to go up against them with a lawyer that was paid and recommended by Tesla.
- taylodl 4y ago
  Oh sure, you'll likely lose the case - but you're going to give Elon Musk and Tesla a black eye in the process. It's a PR nightmare Tesla would be wise to avoid, but Elon Musk is capricious so who knows?
KabukiOrigin 4y ago
EAP Legal programs almost always have specific clauses preventing their use against the employer. Get your own lawyer. A prepaid legal plan can be a cost-effective way to start this.

preinheimer 4y ago

One more note here, Tesla has also announced they want to drop 10% of staff. Normally this sort of thing involves severance packages, notifying agencies about upcoming reductions, actually making decisions, etc. One view here is that if Musk can convince 10% of their staff to quit with this announcement he'll save lots of money (by not paying severance packages and other stuff)! He's got lots of money, you don't need to save it for him.

basisword 4y ago
It's usually not worth claiming it, but it seems like there is an argument for constructive dismissal here.
- nikolaedison 4y ago
  Why is it usually not worth claiming it? The payout is small if one succeeds in arguing it?
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  what would be the point? Isn't constructive dismissal just a way to get unemployment, and you would get unemployment anyways with a layoff or involuntary termination?
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    That is the point: if an employee quits, they're not entitled to unemployment. However, if they were "constructively dismissed" that is treated as a layoff/involuntary termination and the employee can get unemployment. Note that the OP mentioned that their remote work agreement was voided. They weren't constructively dismissed, it sounds like they were actually terminated. (A company can't simply decide to unilaterally void part of an employment agreement without voiding the entire agreement. That's not how contracts work. )
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago

ryandvm 4y ago

I don't know what Tesla pay is like, but man, you really have to be guzzling the Kool-Aid to stay employed there. Crunching crazy hours, having some asshole guilt you for PTO, working for the world's unfunniest meme Lord, etc. Somehow, I have the feeling they're going to have no problem shedding 10% of their workforce this year...

halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
Is it really hard to see why people would want to work there, morally? The goal of playing a part in sustainable/renewable energy is pretty noble.
- Something1234 4y ago
  That is such a freaking joke. Personal automobiles are the worse possible thing for the environment. End cars. Let's get real public transit back. Hyperloop is a lie to kill existing public transit efforts. So many people have documented that so many things have issues. Yes electric cars are good, but not much better than Plugin Hybrids.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Entire countries have been developed around the car. It’s tone deaf to ignore that and think they’re going away anytime in the next half century, demanding public transportation replace them. Urban planning and refactoring takes significant time. The US shrugs at such an idea and keeps buying 17 million cars a year. Even Norway buys cars (although most are electric cars now). When cars are sold, they should be EVs.
  - Karsteski 4y ago
    > End cars I guess those of us that live in rural areas should just bike 100s of km everywhere then. It's always amusing to see these hyperbolic, clearly unrealistic statements on here. I wonder what's going through the head of someone like you...
    - 4y ago

fsociety 4y ago

This is the money advice. I had an issue vaguely like this with an employer. The advice I received was, don’t tell them you have a lawyer unless the lawyer says to, don’t quit or let them make decisions for you, and if you are unsure draw things out. While doing these things you should probably find a lawyer to help you out.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Vladimof 4y ago

I wish I would have read this advice years ago...

gamblor956 4y ago

Agreed, don't quit. It sounds like you have an actual employment agreement saying your position is remote. If that's the case, and your agreement has suddenly been "voided", then technically you were just laid off, and Tesla owes you severance (if that was part of your agreement). The point of Elon Musk demanding that everyone work from the office is to try to make it the employee's decision to leave the company, rather than the company laying them off. Because if the employee leaves, the employee is not entitled to unemployment (or severance, if that is part of their employment agreement). However, terminations by the employer are covered by state and federal labor laws, and generally Tesla would owe unemployment for all terminated employees, and severance if that is part of their employment agreement. (And mass terminations such as this one are additionally governed by the WARN Act.)

xtiansimon 4y ago

“One thing I don't think you should do is quit.” Second. Under most circumstances, if you quit a job, you are not entitled to state Unemployment Insurance. Not sure if this is what you’re referring to as ‘severance’ (what I usually think of as granted by the largesse of the employer).

bradgessler 4y ago

Also start interviewing elsewhere. Life is too short to work at a place like that with your talents. There’s many other companies that would happily put your skills to use under better working conditions.