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My suspicion is that this, and MicroPython, which it's based off, are designed for people who know Python, and are hesitant to learn another language, or expand

My suspicion is that this, and MicroPython, which it's based off, are designed for people who know Python, and are hesitant to learn another language, or expand their toolbox. Python is a great language in some domains. For example, numerical computing, web servers, and scripting. Embedded programming is, unfortunately, only suitable to a handful of languages that can operate with high speed and low memory use. At this time, they're C, C++, Rust, Zig, and ADA. For example, on my embedded projects, I use Python to handle the webite framework, and to generate filter coefficients using Scipy, and plot data with MPL. I use Rust for the firmware.

tssva 4y ago
CircuitPython is designed for beginner hobbyists and the lower grade education market. Basically those with none to little programming experience.
traverseda 4y ago
It's really quite nice to be able to telnet into a running micro-controller (over wifi even!), play around with pins directly, all that. Being able to run code at runtime with no compile step also opens up the possibility of micro-controllers that can load "apps" or other user code at run time. Somehow I don't think people would be this snobby about the advantages of an interpreted language if it was running lisp^1 instead of python. Of course to be fair if it was javascript they'd be twice as snobby and I'd agree with them... [1]: https://thenewstack.io/nasa-programmer-remembers-debugging-lisp-in-deep-space/ https://thenewstack.io/nasa-programmer-remembers-debugging-l...
- the__alchemist 4y ago
  It's not about being snobby - it's about choosing the right tool for the job. Challenge: Come up with a set of project requirements for a practical electronics device, and evaluate if Python is the right tool for the job. I'm suspicious you'll run into headaches with interrupts, DMA, concurrent processes interfering with each other due to taking up too much CPU time, onboard peripherals beyond the most popular in the most popular configs won't work etc.
  - traverseda 4y ago
    A user-interface for 3D printers. * Must be able to communicate with arbitrary 3D printers over USB, should be able to act as a USB host. * Must be able to load user programs/extensions. * Must be able to connect to wifi and host a rudimentary web interface. * Must have a color display and user interface including graphs. * Must have a BoM cost of less than 40 US dollars. --- I'd argue micropython would be the best choice for that set of requirements, as opposed to something like a raspberry pi. Not sure you can get an RPI with a display in that price range, but you can definitely get microcontrollers that support USB host and have a screen in that price range, in bulk and able to be incorporated into an actual product. For the user plugin loader, you might be better off using a lua interpreter? I think micropython would still be a good choice for it though. Any thoughts on how you'd want to put something like that together?
  - hecanjog 4y ago
    Having just used it to interactively play around with PWM settings controlling some motors and solenoids for a music project, I found it much more useful than compiling a new firmware and flashing the microcontroller for every tweak I'm making. I don't have a very compelling reason to port it to anything else at this point, for doing control-rate (in other words: slow) updates to PWM outputs on a microcontroller, it works perfectly.
    - chasd00 4y ago
      Yes, being able to fiddle with peripherals right there on the repl skipping the compile and flash step is a huge productivity gain.
  - nkrebs13 4y ago
    If you're doing any serious amount of work in any situation then I agree with you, but sometimes the best tool for the job is the one that gets the job done. CircuitPython is special-built for this exact task -- to make microcontroller work more approachable and accessible for beginners and/or projects with a small scope. Anecdote: I used it a few weeks ago for a project that was small and had a tight timeline. As a beginner to electrical engineering with microcontrollers it was nice to not have to struggle through language syntax as well. This solved my use case perfectly.
- tlavoie 4y ago
  How about https://ulisp.com/ https://ulisp.com/? It's a subset of common lisp, and seems to be able to do a fair bit. The Python interpreters probably have a lot more community traction though.
JKCalhoun 4y ago
I remember the "Handy Board" [1], a 68HC11-based micro-board (that came out of MIT?) that had an amazing "Interactive-C" language. C code was compiled to a byte-code that was interpreted in real-time on the Handy Board. So cool to type code on the C/L and have it execute on the microcontroller and return a result back to your terminal. I suspect Python on a microcontroller gives a similar experience/thrill. [1] So chunky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handy_Board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handy_Board
- II2II 4y ago
  I've recently been watching some videos of people resurrecting mid-1970's vintage computers based upon the then new microprocessor. Even though the base configuration of these machines came with about a kilobyte of RAM and a similar amount of ROM, they managed a degree of interactivity through a machine language monitor. Of course, upgrading the memories allowed for more sophisticated interactive languages like BASIC. It left me quite surprised that a similar progression in interactive development tools has been, at best, a novelty item in the microcontroller world. Most microcontrollers are more capable and include the requisite UART, yet the only way you're going to interact with most of them is with a much more powerful computer and a frequently costly[1] hardware interface for debugging. While those are fine in most cases, there are times when I would have (figuratively) killed to be able to go in and change a couple of bytes. [1] Yes, I am cheap. Incidentally, I think one of the brilliant things about the introduction of the Raspberry Pi Pico was not just having MicroPython available on the day of introduction, but instructions on programming a second identically inexpensive Pico to be an SWD.
bodge5000 4y ago
> designed for people who know Python, and are hesitant to learn another language, or expand their toolbox I've been in this position and all I'd say is a little more complicated than that. I'm happy to learn other languages (in fact I am learning Rust at the moment), however I opt for CircuitPython a lot of the time because theres a job I need doing. Expanding your toolbox is great, and often having a project to work on with whatever your learning is a great way to do that, but sometimes you just have a job that needs doing, and in that case a language thats both fast to work with and your familiar with seems like an ideal choice, as long as your aware of the drawbacks of it.
- calvinmorrison 4y ago
  Especially for prototyping. Here I am working on a widget, it takes some sensors and runs some output. Well, I can prototype basically the whole thing using adafruit boards, quic i2c connectors, and do it relatively cheap. Chips are cheap! If I wanted to actually mass produce this, we would make our own PCB, integrate all the sensors onto a single board, and so forth, but for playing around with a concept? Yeah, I'll take adafruit and some adapters any day. (Currently doing this right now for a pressure sensor that predates standard MAP sensors but operates similarly). If the concept is right... then we can think about making it for real real
II2II 4y ago
> Embedded programming is, unfortunately, only suitable to a handful of languages that can operate with high speed and low memory use. There are plenty of applications where the performance or resource needs aren't great and the number of units being produced aren't sufficient to justify the marginal savings on a microcontroller. Then there are situations where it may be desirable to make it easy for multiple people to go in and modify a program on a regular basis, where languages like Python tend to be clearer at communicating intent since the low level implementation is handled by the language. (While you may be able to provide high level abstraction in languages like C, you cannot abstract away all of those details in C.) Of course, Python also provides an REPL. That can remove the need for developing your own command language for managing the device. For some reason this feels like the same argument I had to present for the opposite situation, pointing out that sometimes optimized C or assembly code were necessary since there were cases where it is more cost effective to use microcontrollers that offered bytes of RAM or non-volatile storage. This is especially true when something is developed once, widely deployed, never modified, and does not need to be managed. As with anything, it depends upon your application.
mediaman 4y ago
A broad statement such as this inevitably gets it wrong. I use micropython for developing embedded applications for industrial sensors. It is much faster to develop and I am fine using microcontrollers with enough memory that I do not need to optimize every last byte. Cost of the hardware is not the priority. There are applications where there is not enough memory and python isn't the right tool. But in a world where microcontrollers keep getting more advanced and packaging more memory, claiming that languages like Python have no place is just as wrong as when people claimed Python had no place against C/C++ back when PCs were more resource constrained. The economics for this type of question typically center around volume shipments. If you're shipping lots of hardware, optimizing hardware cost (and therefore minimizing software resource requirements) is the priority. If you're not, developer time is the main cost. There are a lot of products in the latter category.
thamer 4y ago
As others have mentioned, you don't always need the full performance of these microcontrollers, and many are pretty powerful to start with. An ESP32-S3 has two cores running at 240 MHz, and boards that ship with 8 MB of RAM and 16 MB of flash for $22[1]. They also have WiFi, BLE, and tons of pins. This is more than enough to run many programs with CircuitPython, and the number of libraries available for it[2] makes it incredibly easy to get started building small projects. In addition, connectors like Qwiic/STEMMA QT[3] make it possible to connect to a large number of sensors without needing a breadboard or having to solder anything. I've built a few projects with microcontrollers like these and Adafruit sensor boards and never had to resort to low-level languages. [1] https://esp32s3.com/feathers3.html https://esp32s3.com/feathers3.html [2] https://docs.circuitpython.org/projects/bundle/en/latest/drivers.html https://docs.circuitpython.org/projects/bundle/en/latest/dri... [3] https://learn.adafruit.com/introducing-adafruit-stemma-qt/what-is-stemma-qt https://learn.adafruit.com/introducing-adafruit-stemma-qt/wh...

tssva 4y ago

CircuitPython is designed for beginner hobbyists and the lower grade education market. Basically those with none to little programming experience.

traverseda 4y ago

It's really quite nice to be able to telnet into a running micro-controller (over wifi even!), play around with pins directly, all that. Being able to run code at runtime with no compile step also opens up the possibility of micro-controllers that can load "apps" or other user code at run time. Somehow I don't think people would be this snobby about the advantages of an interpreted language if it was running lisp^1 instead of python. Of course to be fair if it was javascript they'd be twice as snobby and I'd agree with them... [1]: https://thenewstack.io/nasa-programmer-remembers-debugging-lisp-in-deep-space/ https://thenewstack.io/nasa-programmer-remembers-debugging-l...

the__alchemist 4y ago
It's not about being snobby - it's about choosing the right tool for the job. Challenge: Come up with a set of project requirements for a practical electronics device, and evaluate if Python is the right tool for the job. I'm suspicious you'll run into headaches with interrupts, DMA, concurrent processes interfering with each other due to taking up too much CPU time, onboard peripherals beyond the most popular in the most popular configs won't work etc.
- traverseda 4y ago
  A user-interface for 3D printers. * Must be able to communicate with arbitrary 3D printers over USB, should be able to act as a USB host. * Must be able to load user programs/extensions. * Must be able to connect to wifi and host a rudimentary web interface. * Must have a color display and user interface including graphs. * Must have a BoM cost of less than 40 US dollars. --- I'd argue micropython would be the best choice for that set of requirements, as opposed to something like a raspberry pi. Not sure you can get an RPI with a display in that price range, but you can definitely get microcontrollers that support USB host and have a screen in that price range, in bulk and able to be incorporated into an actual product. For the user plugin loader, you might be better off using a lua interpreter? I think micropython would still be a good choice for it though. Any thoughts on how you'd want to put something like that together?
- hecanjog 4y ago
  Having just used it to interactively play around with PWM settings controlling some motors and solenoids for a music project, I found it much more useful than compiling a new firmware and flashing the microcontroller for every tweak I'm making. I don't have a very compelling reason to port it to anything else at this point, for doing control-rate (in other words: slow) updates to PWM outputs on a microcontroller, it works perfectly.
  - chasd00 4y ago
    Yes, being able to fiddle with peripherals right there on the repl skipping the compile and flash step is a huge productivity gain.
- nkrebs13 4y ago
  If you're doing any serious amount of work in any situation then I agree with you, but sometimes the best tool for the job is the one that gets the job done. CircuitPython is special-built for this exact task -- to make microcontroller work more approachable and accessible for beginners and/or projects with a small scope. Anecdote: I used it a few weeks ago for a project that was small and had a tight timeline. As a beginner to electrical engineering with microcontrollers it was nice to not have to struggle through language syntax as well. This solved my use case perfectly.
tlavoie 4y ago
How about https://ulisp.com/ https://ulisp.com/? It's a subset of common lisp, and seems to be able to do a fair bit. The Python interpreters probably have a lot more community traction though.

JKCalhoun 4y ago

I remember the "Handy Board" [1], a 68HC11-based micro-board (that came out of MIT?) that had an amazing "Interactive-C" language. C code was compiled to a byte-code that was interpreted in real-time on the Handy Board. So cool to type code on the C/L and have it execute on the microcontroller and return a result back to your terminal. I suspect Python on a microcontroller gives a similar experience/thrill. [1] So chunky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handy_Board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handy_Board

II2II 4y ago
I've recently been watching some videos of people resurrecting mid-1970's vintage computers based upon the then new microprocessor. Even though the base configuration of these machines came with about a kilobyte of RAM and a similar amount of ROM, they managed a degree of interactivity through a machine language monitor. Of course, upgrading the memories allowed for more sophisticated interactive languages like BASIC. It left me quite surprised that a similar progression in interactive development tools has been, at best, a novelty item in the microcontroller world. Most microcontrollers are more capable and include the requisite UART, yet the only way you're going to interact with most of them is with a much more powerful computer and a frequently costly[1] hardware interface for debugging. While those are fine in most cases, there are times when I would have (figuratively) killed to be able to go in and change a couple of bytes. [1] Yes, I am cheap. Incidentally, I think one of the brilliant things about the introduction of the Raspberry Pi Pico was not just having MicroPython available on the day of introduction, but instructions on programming a second identically inexpensive Pico to be an SWD.

bodge5000 4y ago

> designed for people who know Python, and are hesitant to learn another language, or expand their toolbox I've been in this position and all I'd say is a little more complicated than that. I'm happy to learn other languages (in fact I am learning Rust at the moment), however I opt for CircuitPython a lot of the time because theres a job I need doing. Expanding your toolbox is great, and often having a project to work on with whatever your learning is a great way to do that, but sometimes you just have a job that needs doing, and in that case a language thats both fast to work with and your familiar with seems like an ideal choice, as long as your aware of the drawbacks of it.

calvinmorrison 4y ago
Especially for prototyping. Here I am working on a widget, it takes some sensors and runs some output. Well, I can prototype basically the whole thing using adafruit boards, quic i2c connectors, and do it relatively cheap. Chips are cheap! If I wanted to actually mass produce this, we would make our own PCB, integrate all the sensors onto a single board, and so forth, but for playing around with a concept? Yeah, I'll take adafruit and some adapters any day. (Currently doing this right now for a pressure sensor that predates standard MAP sensors but operates similarly). If the concept is right... then we can think about making it for real real

II2II 4y ago

> Embedded programming is, unfortunately, only suitable to a handful of languages that can operate with high speed and low memory use. There are plenty of applications where the performance or resource needs aren't great and the number of units being produced aren't sufficient to justify the marginal savings on a microcontroller. Then there are situations where it may be desirable to make it easy for multiple people to go in and modify a program on a regular basis, where languages like Python tend to be clearer at communicating intent since the low level implementation is handled by the language. (While you may be able to provide high level abstraction in languages like C, you cannot abstract away all of those details in C.) Of course, Python also provides an REPL. That can remove the need for developing your own command language for managing the device. For some reason this feels like the same argument I had to present for the opposite situation, pointing out that sometimes optimized C or assembly code were necessary since there were cases where it is more cost effective to use microcontrollers that offered bytes of RAM or non-volatile storage. This is especially true when something is developed once, widely deployed, never modified, and does not need to be managed. As with anything, it depends upon your application.

mediaman 4y ago

A broad statement such as this inevitably gets it wrong. I use micropython for developing embedded applications for industrial sensors. It is much faster to develop and I am fine using microcontrollers with enough memory that I do not need to optimize every last byte. Cost of the hardware is not the priority. There are applications where there is not enough memory and python isn't the right tool. But in a world where microcontrollers keep getting more advanced and packaging more memory, claiming that languages like Python have no place is just as wrong as when people claimed Python had no place against C/C++ back when PCs were more resource constrained. The economics for this type of question typically center around volume shipments. If you're shipping lots of hardware, optimizing hardware cost (and therefore minimizing software resource requirements) is the priority. If you're not, developer time is the main cost. There are a lot of products in the latter category.

thamer 4y ago

As others have mentioned, you don't always need the full performance of these microcontrollers, and many are pretty powerful to start with. An ESP32-S3 has two cores running at 240 MHz, and boards that ship with 8 MB of RAM and 16 MB of flash for $22[1]. They also have WiFi, BLE, and tons of pins. This is more than enough to run many programs with CircuitPython, and the number of libraries available for it[2] makes it incredibly easy to get started building small projects. In addition, connectors like Qwiic/STEMMA QT[3] make it possible to connect to a large number of sensors without needing a breadboard or having to solder anything. I've built a few projects with microcontrollers like these and Adafruit sensor boards and never had to resort to low-level languages. [1] https://esp32s3.com/feathers3.html https://esp32s3.com/feathers3.html [2] https://docs.circuitpython.org/projects/bundle/en/latest/drivers.html https://docs.circuitpython.org/projects/bundle/en/latest/dri... [3] https://learn.adafruit.com/introducing-adafruit-stemma-qt/what-is-stemma-qt https://learn.adafruit.com/introducing-adafruit-stemma-qt/wh...