6 ms·

The solution to mass incarceration isn't less tough policing, it's a more effective justice system with reasonable punishment and thorough prevention and rehab

by tinco 4y ago

The solution to mass incarceration isn't less tough policing, it's a more effective justice system with reasonable punishment and thorough prevention and rehabilitation programmes. Part of prevention is more policing, not less. Being Reasonable or thorough never got anyone elected though.

halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
Chicago has the largest police budget in the country and it still has very high crime. We need smarter policing, not more.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  The US is under policed compared to any Western European country. Its rate of murder per capita is above practically all European countries when excluding gun homicides. It should at least have as many police per capita as Spain, 534/100k, not 239, which is less than even Taiwan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_depend...
  - scarface74 4y ago
    What circumstances do police prevent crime? If someone breaks into my house, what are the chances that police will get there in time to stop it? If someone is victim of crime committed by a family member (20%), how will the police help? Then you have the case where the police were afraid to go into a school during an active shooter incident because they were “afraid of getting shot” https://nypost.com/2022/05/26/texas-cops-feared-getting-shot-during-uvalde-school-shooting-lieutenant/ https://nypost.com/2022/05/26/texas-cops-feared-getting-shot...
    - thereisnospork 4y ago
      A person in jail can't break into your house. People incompatible with society need to be removed from it.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        There are more than enough police to arrest people after the fact.
    - tinco 4y ago
      The chances that they will be there in time to catch the perpetrator as they're fleeing, or to take care of you as you are processing the event is larger. But more importantly, they will feel less stressed knowing backup is nearby, they will have more time to process and investigate and take care of the victims. As the saying goes, happy police, happy polis.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        How pervasive would police have to be for them to catch a person “fleeing” from a house in the middle of the night in a city of even 200K people? The most police ever do is take a statement so you can file an insurance claim. Which isn’t bad. It is just stuff. But if I’m in the house, that’s a different story. I’m much more concerned about police targeting me because I as Black person am “suspiciously” walking to the pool in my own neighborhood where the city is less than 4% Black. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/28/ving-rhames-police-gunpoint-home https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/28/ving-rhames-... I’ve never once thought “I have an issue. Let me calm the police and have to deal with the ‘justice’ system”. Now I just have more problems
        tinco 4y ago
        I'm sorry that's the way it is, and I would never suggest more police is the whole solution, just a small part of it. The kind of person who can't tell a dangerous person from a person walking to their neighborhood pool regardless of skin color should have never been allowed to be police in the first place.
- nostromo 4y ago
  The comment didn’t say “we need to spend more on policing” - it said “we need more policing.”
  - halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
    Connect how "more policing" does not logically equate to spending more money. Are people going to volunteer to be police officers now?
    - nostromo 4y ago
      California paid a lifeguard over $500,000 last year. https://nypost.com/2022/05/31/la-lifeguards-raked-in-up-to-500k-last-year-watchdog-report/ https://nypost.com/2022/05/31/la-lifeguards-raked-in-up-to-5... We don’t need to spend more - we need the state to fix how money is allocated.
    - tinco 4y ago
      It only logically equates if the police budgets are equally distributed. So you're right if Chicago also has the largest police force, and there are no other confounding factors such as a higher base rate of crime due to social/economic context of the city. I am definitely suggesting spending more money on police though. Both in police employment and in police education. If I were king, I'd introduce a new rank of police officer, that gets paid 30% more and 10% more time off, that requires a year or two extra education, continuous education upkeep and extra scrutiny on their record of interactions (i.e. complaints). Too many complaints, or screw up in some bad way and you lose your rank for 1 to 5 years. Police departments would be required to gradually increase their ratio of the higher ranked officers to 30 to 50%. Just daydreaming though.
- daxaxelrod 4y ago
  They have the largest percentage of their budget but not the largest in absolute terms. https://www.statista.com/chart/10593/how-much-do-us-cities-spend-on-policing/ https://www.statista.com/chart/10593/how-much-do-us-cities-s...
- dash2 4y ago
  Reverse causality has entered the chat.
ramesh31 4y ago
The solution is universal pre-k, socialized medicine, and massive federal investment in K-12 schooling. By the time you've reached the justice system, it's too late.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  > massive federal investment in K-12 schooling Because we aren't spending enough on K-12 education already? Throwing good money after bad is terrible policy. (Medicine has lots of issues too, but it's an entirely separate issue from criminal justice.)
  - ramesh31 4y ago
    >Because we aren't spending enough on K-12 education already? At the federal level? Not really. The Department of Education is something like less than 1% of the federal budget. Furthermore the problem comes down to how schools are actually funded. In the US, it's almost entirely through local property taxes. Which means that racial and socioeconomic segregation cause children to be doomed to an underfunded school district, perpetuating the cycle.
    - nostromo 4y ago
      It doesn’t matter where the budget comes from. The US funds primary education very well - as well as many of our European counterparts (despite our worse outcomes).
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - throwingrocks 4y ago
    If you think schools don't have enough money, you're not looking hard enough.
    - ramesh31 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Pulcinella 4y ago
Police literally don’t prevent crimes. Both officially and unofficially their job is not to prevent crime.
- ameister14 4y ago
  That's bogus. Police presence most certainly deters crime.
  - Pulcinella 4y ago
    Yeah man the Police in Parkland and Uvalde sure did deter any potential school shooters… https://communityresourcehub.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/0726_PoliceDontStop_C.pdf https://communityresourcehub.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonza...
    - the_only_law 4y ago
      They managed to deter concerned parents though, gotta give the some credit.
- wussboy 4y ago
  Maybe officially and unofficially, but the state monopoly on violence (of which the police is a part) absolutely reduces violence and prevents crime. See “Better Angels” for a discussion of why. Or go right back to Leviathan.

by tinco 4y ago

halfmatthalfcat 4y ago

Chicago has the largest police budget in the country and it still has very high crime. We need smarter policing, not more.

barry-cotter 4y ago
The US is under policed compared to any Western European country. Its rate of murder per capita is above practically all European countries when excluding gun homicides. It should at least have as many police per capita as Spain, 534/100k, not 239, which is less than even Taiwan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_depend...
- scarface74 4y ago
  What circumstances do police prevent crime? If someone breaks into my house, what are the chances that police will get there in time to stop it? If someone is victim of crime committed by a family member (20%), how will the police help? Then you have the case where the police were afraid to go into a school during an active shooter incident because they were “afraid of getting shot” https://nypost.com/2022/05/26/texas-cops-feared-getting-shot-during-uvalde-school-shooting-lieutenant/ https://nypost.com/2022/05/26/texas-cops-feared-getting-shot...
  - thereisnospork 4y ago
    A person in jail can't break into your house. People incompatible with society need to be removed from it.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      There are more than enough police to arrest people after the fact.
  - tinco 4y ago
    The chances that they will be there in time to catch the perpetrator as they're fleeing, or to take care of you as you are processing the event is larger. But more importantly, they will feel less stressed knowing backup is nearby, they will have more time to process and investigate and take care of the victims. As the saying goes, happy police, happy polis.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      How pervasive would police have to be for them to catch a person “fleeing” from a house in the middle of the night in a city of even 200K people? The most police ever do is take a statement so you can file an insurance claim. Which isn’t bad. It is just stuff. But if I’m in the house, that’s a different story. I’m much more concerned about police targeting me because I as Black person am “suspiciously” walking to the pool in my own neighborhood where the city is less than 4% Black. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/28/ving-rhames-police-gunpoint-home https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/28/ving-rhames-... I’ve never once thought “I have an issue. Let me calm the police and have to deal with the ‘justice’ system”. Now I just have more problems
      - tinco 4y ago
        I'm sorry that's the way it is, and I would never suggest more police is the whole solution, just a small part of it. The kind of person who can't tell a dangerous person from a person walking to their neighborhood pool regardless of skin color should have never been allowed to be police in the first place.
nostromo 4y ago
The comment didn’t say “we need to spend more on policing” - it said “we need more policing.”
- halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
  Connect how "more policing" does not logically equate to spending more money. Are people going to volunteer to be police officers now?
  - nostromo 4y ago
    California paid a lifeguard over $500,000 last year. https://nypost.com/2022/05/31/la-lifeguards-raked-in-up-to-500k-last-year-watchdog-report/ https://nypost.com/2022/05/31/la-lifeguards-raked-in-up-to-5... We don’t need to spend more - we need the state to fix how money is allocated.
  - tinco 4y ago
    It only logically equates if the police budgets are equally distributed. So you're right if Chicago also has the largest police force, and there are no other confounding factors such as a higher base rate of crime due to social/economic context of the city. I am definitely suggesting spending more money on police though. Both in police employment and in police education. If I were king, I'd introduce a new rank of police officer, that gets paid 30% more and 10% more time off, that requires a year or two extra education, continuous education upkeep and extra scrutiny on their record of interactions (i.e. complaints). Too many complaints, or screw up in some bad way and you lose your rank for 1 to 5 years. Police departments would be required to gradually increase their ratio of the higher ranked officers to 30 to 50%. Just daydreaming though.
daxaxelrod 4y ago
They have the largest percentage of their budget but not the largest in absolute terms. https://www.statista.com/chart/10593/how-much-do-us-cities-spend-on-policing/ https://www.statista.com/chart/10593/how-much-do-us-cities-s...
dash2 4y ago
Reverse causality has entered the chat.

ramesh31 4y ago

The solution is universal pre-k, socialized medicine, and massive federal investment in K-12 schooling. By the time you've reached the justice system, it's too late.

zozbot234 4y ago
> massive federal investment in K-12 schooling Because we aren't spending enough on K-12 education already? Throwing good money after bad is terrible policy. (Medicine has lots of issues too, but it's an entirely separate issue from criminal justice.)
- ramesh31 4y ago
  >Because we aren't spending enough on K-12 education already? At the federal level? Not really. The Department of Education is something like less than 1% of the federal budget. Furthermore the problem comes down to how schools are actually funded. In the US, it's almost entirely through local property taxes. Which means that racial and socioeconomic segregation cause children to be doomed to an underfunded school district, perpetuating the cycle.
  - nostromo 4y ago
    It doesn’t matter where the budget comes from. The US funds primary education very well - as well as many of our European counterparts (despite our worse outcomes).
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- throwingrocks 4y ago
  If you think schools don't have enough money, you're not looking hard enough.
  - ramesh31 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Pulcinella 4y ago

Police literally don’t prevent crimes. Both officially and unofficially their job is not to prevent crime.

ameister14 4y ago
That's bogus. Police presence most certainly deters crime.
- Pulcinella 4y ago
  Yeah man the Police in Parkland and Uvalde sure did deter any potential school shooters… https://communityresourcehub.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/0726_PoliceDontStop_C.pdf https://communityresourcehub.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonza...
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    They managed to deter concerned parents though, gotta give the some credit.
wussboy 4y ago
Maybe officially and unofficially, but the state monopoly on violence (of which the police is a part) absolutely reduces violence and prevents crime. See “Better Angels” for a discussion of why. Or go right back to Leviathan.