10 ms·

It’s interesting that you don’t consider landscaping, juice bars, and wind surfing schools as beneficial to the economy. Could it be that these highly educated

It’s interesting that you don’t consider landscaping, juice bars, and wind surfing schools as beneficial to the economy. Could it be that these highly educated and intelligent people you are talking about see things differently? Perhaps after 5 years in tech they realize that none of the companies they’ve worked for are actually providing any benefit to society and are perhaps even a net negative. That realization is sure to produce instant burnout as the work you’re putting in is now meaningless or even harmful. At that point it becomes a rational choice to start a small business that provides some immediate benefit to people no matter how trivial. I don’t think there’s a damned thing you could change in the work environment to fix that, it’s the work itself that is the problem.

adhesive_wombat 4y ago
> companies they’ve worked for are actually providing any benefit to society and are perhaps even a net negative Right? When I started out, 1/3 of my interviews were with gambling machine companies, another was with a company that only existed to arbitrage betting odds for their own profit, and one was some kind of quasi-AI surveillance thing. A lot of GDP is generated on completely parasitic activities, and you can do a lot worse for society than running a "soft" business ethically and happily.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  I'm doing that now. For free. I've written infrastructure software that has, without a doubt, saved a lot of lives, and will continue to do so, for many years to come. I've been working on a client implementation that leverages that software, for the last couple of years. It's approaching ship (but still a ways off). One of the goals of that project, is to help train a few young friends in the ins and outs of what it takes to create shipping software. These projects would be worth a lot of dosh, if I were to hang a sticker on them. But I did them for no money. Society (especially US society) does not value vocations that help others. Teachers are incredibly well-educated, but treated like dirt. The same with social workers. We value individuality and selfishness. In fact, we actually deify these qualities. It's an issue, but one I have no ideas how to solve. I think that the right to spend money on what we want is an important one, and I won't gainsay anyone else's right to do that. If driving around in a Model X and having a model (of any gender identification) on your arm is your priority, and you have worked hard for that, then Godspeed and good luck. I have different priorities, and the story of how I got them is long and winding. Not so many folks have backgrounds like mine, and not many that do, have developed priorities like mine. I am grateful to be in the position I'm in.
  - ctvo 4y ago
    > Society (especially US society) does not value vocations that help others. Teachers are incredibly well-educated, but treated like dirt. The same with social workers. We value individuality and selfishness. In fact, we actually deify these qualities. What about doctors? Nurses? Tenured professors? Blanket statements are fun but probably miss the more nuanced issue. Systemically public education is broken leading to us undervaluing teachers in many public school districts. The same for social workers -- the US doesn't have robust social safety nets so social workers can provide less help. Perhaps that's why they're not viewed as favorably? The same budget constraints apply to their salaries, making it so the more qualified ones go into private practice perhaps?
    - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
      >Nurses? I know a lot of nurses. They make decent (not outrageous) money, but their work environment is frequently a shitshow. Many are quitting. >Tenured professors? I know a few. I guess some of them are paid well, but they often make a lot less than their students. They do have job security (like tenured teachers). Doctors don't make money because they help people. They make money, because people with money think what they do is important. [UPDATE]: Note the downvotes. I didn't post anything that attacked anyone. I made a "blanket statement" that has been made millions of times, and is, regardless, quite true. I also talked about some projects that I've done (a few that are easily accessible, for anyone interested). These were not mentioned to be "snotty." They are simply what I have done, out of Gratitude and for deeply personal reasons. Don't like to look at things that make us uncomfortable? Join the club. However, it often makes us better people.
      - throwaway894345 4y ago
        > I know a lot of nurses. They make decent (not outrageous) money, but their work environment is frequently a shitshow. Many are quitting. You're conflating recent and broad economic trends with the specific conditions of a specific profession. Millions of Americans all over the country have been quitting and changing careers (it even has a name: "the Great Resignation"). This doesn't mean their conditions are shit, but rather that pandemic-era economic forces have been reshuffling our economy.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
> It’s interesting that you don’t consider landscaping, juice bars, and wind surfing schools as beneficial to the economy. I definitely didn't say that. At least three of my friends now do those things. They're very happy. And they add a lot to the world, at the least by the smile they wear each day.
ctvo 4y ago
A baker, landscaper, or small business owner doesn't need to do 10 years of additional education at specialize schools, not that they're less beneficial. The charitable reading of the OP's comments would be that it's an inefficient use of society's resources to invest in the education of these folks only to have them leave their respective fields after a short amount of time. The broader question is how do we change that? Is it worth squeezing an extra 1-2 hours a day of productivity from people to have them burn out in 5 years vs. a more steady 25 year career?
- ghaff 4y ago
  A ton of people, including many in technical or technical-adjacent roles, don't really directly use a lot of what they learned in school. Yes, learn how to learn, critical thinking, etc. But directly use what they learned in XYZ class? A lot less.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Most of society's direct expenses in their education is in the K-12 phase, not in the undergrad or graduate schooling. A baker, landscaper, and a computer programmer all had very similar levels of direct educational investment. I don’t think the computer programmer has any different obligation back to society than any of the others.
  - ctvo 4y ago
    > Most of society's direct expenses in their education is in the K-12 phase True that K-12 costs more, but public assistance in higher education is substantial [1]. From grants, subsidized loans to directed money into public universities, it's a sizable investment at the state and federal level. It'd be more efficient to take that money and invest it directly in vocational schools if we knew people would utilize it and then swap careers due to burn out. 1 - https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-briefs/2019/10/two-decades-of-change-in-federal-and-state-higher-education-funding https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-bri... Edit: Updated reference to 2019 version.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
throw8383833jj 4y ago
It's not the work itself. YOu can always take a break. the problem is people's workaholic attitudes: especially managers.
thrwyoilarticle 4y ago
Our jobs are more productive in economic terms and that's the reason we can get paid more. You have a good points about net negatives but objectively our jobs pay more tax & there are plenty of companies where our skills can be applied for good.

adhesive_wombat 4y ago

> companies they’ve worked for are actually providing any benefit to society and are perhaps even a net negative Right? When I started out, 1/3 of my interviews were with gambling machine companies, another was with a company that only existed to arbitrage betting odds for their own profit, and one was some kind of quasi-AI surveillance thing. A lot of GDP is generated on completely parasitic activities, and you can do a lot worse for society than running a "soft" business ethically and happily.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
I'm doing that now. For free. I've written infrastructure software that has, without a doubt, saved a lot of lives, and will continue to do so, for many years to come. I've been working on a client implementation that leverages that software, for the last couple of years. It's approaching ship (but still a ways off). One of the goals of that project, is to help train a few young friends in the ins and outs of what it takes to create shipping software. These projects would be worth a lot of dosh, if I were to hang a sticker on them. But I did them for no money. Society (especially US society) does not value vocations that help others. Teachers are incredibly well-educated, but treated like dirt. The same with social workers. We value individuality and selfishness. In fact, we actually deify these qualities. It's an issue, but one I have no ideas how to solve. I think that the right to spend money on what we want is an important one, and I won't gainsay anyone else's right to do that. If driving around in a Model X and having a model (of any gender identification) on your arm is your priority, and you have worked hard for that, then Godspeed and good luck. I have different priorities, and the story of how I got them is long and winding. Not so many folks have backgrounds like mine, and not many that do, have developed priorities like mine. I am grateful to be in the position I'm in.
- ctvo 4y ago
  > Society (especially US society) does not value vocations that help others. Teachers are incredibly well-educated, but treated like dirt. The same with social workers. We value individuality and selfishness. In fact, we actually deify these qualities. What about doctors? Nurses? Tenured professors? Blanket statements are fun but probably miss the more nuanced issue. Systemically public education is broken leading to us undervaluing teachers in many public school districts. The same for social workers -- the US doesn't have robust social safety nets so social workers can provide less help. Perhaps that's why they're not viewed as favorably? The same budget constraints apply to their salaries, making it so the more qualified ones go into private practice perhaps?
  - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
    >Nurses? I know a lot of nurses. They make decent (not outrageous) money, but their work environment is frequently a shitshow. Many are quitting. >Tenured professors? I know a few. I guess some of them are paid well, but they often make a lot less than their students. They do have job security (like tenured teachers). Doctors don't make money because they help people. They make money, because people with money think what they do is important. [UPDATE]: Note the downvotes. I didn't post anything that attacked anyone. I made a "blanket statement" that has been made millions of times, and is, regardless, quite true. I also talked about some projects that I've done (a few that are easily accessible, for anyone interested). These were not mentioned to be "snotty." They are simply what I have done, out of Gratitude and for deeply personal reasons. Don't like to look at things that make us uncomfortable? Join the club. However, it often makes us better people.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      > I know a lot of nurses. They make decent (not outrageous) money, but their work environment is frequently a shitshow. Many are quitting. You're conflating recent and broad economic trends with the specific conditions of a specific profession. Millions of Americans all over the country have been quitting and changing careers (it even has a name: "the Great Resignation"). This doesn't mean their conditions are shit, but rather that pandemic-era economic forces have been reshuffling our economy.

nonrandomstring 4y ago

> It’s interesting that you don’t consider landscaping, juice bars, and wind surfing schools as beneficial to the economy. I definitely didn't say that. At least three of my friends now do those things. They're very happy. And they add a lot to the world, at the least by the smile they wear each day.

ctvo 4y ago

A baker, landscaper, or small business owner doesn't need to do 10 years of additional education at specialize schools, not that they're less beneficial. The charitable reading of the OP's comments would be that it's an inefficient use of society's resources to invest in the education of these folks only to have them leave their respective fields after a short amount of time. The broader question is how do we change that? Is it worth squeezing an extra 1-2 hours a day of productivity from people to have them burn out in 5 years vs. a more steady 25 year career?

ghaff 4y ago
A ton of people, including many in technical or technical-adjacent roles, don't really directly use a lot of what they learned in school. Yes, learn how to learn, critical thinking, etc. But directly use what they learned in XYZ class? A lot less.
sokoloff 4y ago
Most of society's direct expenses in their education is in the K-12 phase, not in the undergrad or graduate schooling. A baker, landscaper, and a computer programmer all had very similar levels of direct educational investment. I don’t think the computer programmer has any different obligation back to society than any of the others.
- ctvo 4y ago
  > Most of society's direct expenses in their education is in the K-12 phase True that K-12 costs more, but public assistance in higher education is substantial [1]. From grants, subsidized loans to directed money into public universities, it's a sizable investment at the state and federal level. It'd be more efficient to take that money and invest it directly in vocational schools if we knew people would utilize it and then swap careers due to burn out. 1 - https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-briefs/2019/10/two-decades-of-change-in-federal-and-state-higher-education-funding https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-bri... Edit: Updated reference to 2019 version.
BlargMcLarg 4y ago

throw8383833jj 4y ago

It's not the work itself. YOu can always take a break. the problem is people's workaholic attitudes: especially managers.

thrwyoilarticle 4y ago

Our jobs are more productive in economic terms and that's the reason we can get paid more. You have a good points about net negatives but objectively our jobs pay more tax & there are plenty of companies where our skills can be applied for good.