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> I don’t think Python will ever be half as fast as the fastest Julia programs, but that’s okay. A hell of a lot more games/products/everything has been shipped

> I don’t think Python will ever be half as fast as the fastest Julia programs, but that’s okay. A hell of a lot more games/products/everything has been shipped with it than ever will be with Julia 1.* Because python is at least 3 decades old and julia is just a decade old. even python has a "hate" phase before it got widely adopted. > With Julia, I have to think multiplicatively about every call site because it could get called with a million different methods. It’s so annoying. whut?? are you saying this just to sound cool? because for me this is hilarious.

adenozine 4y ago
Well for me, I have 30+ years of software engineering for billion dollar companies to look back on. Pardon me if I don’t find your input valuable. I’ll check back with you in twenty years to see if you matter. ;) I’m not sure what you mean by “sound cool” but you have a lot to learn. Julia’s types are not like templates or generics in other languages, they can basically fit into any method-shaped hole. So, at a call site, there’s no way for me to intuitively reason about the data at play, because some_method() can be literally anything. Combine that with a lack of interfaces, and it’s just mangled up code all over the place. I’ve worked on codebases that stretch longer than my working career, I’ve worked on code where 100+ PhDs had left their mark in gnarly R/Matlab voodoo, I’ve worked on code that transacts hundreds of billions of tax dollars in a year, and much more. Julia is a specialized tool for HPC, and the illusion that multiple dispatch without interfaces can be used to build reliable, understandable, engineerable systems will die as surely as the sun sets each night. I’m not sure your background, and maybe HPC is your expertise or whatever. It seems like you need some better coworkers to learn from, or at least more variety in your intellectual diet.
- cbkeller 4y ago
  While I think I can see where you're coming from, I will say as a personal anecdote that at this point I do feel that I can intuitively reason about the data at play quite easily, and no longer ever find myself running into any confusion about which method will be called (I don't think I've even had to check my intuition on this point with `@which` in over a year) -- but it did take me about two solid years of using Julia for a serious part of my time to get here. It is, in my view, a fundamentally different programming paradigm that most of us have no previous built-up intuition for (unless perhaps you have spent lot of time with languages like Dylan or perhaps CLOS). But it is something you can learn and develop intuition for like anything else. For those still learning, I may also mention `@edit`, which will not just show you the method, but take you directly to the source code of the method being called -- which is something that remains quite useful even when your intuition is fully-developed.

adenozine 4y ago

Well for me, I have 30+ years of software engineering for billion dollar companies to look back on. Pardon me if I don’t find your input valuable. I’ll check back with you in twenty years to see if you matter. ;) I’m not sure what you mean by “sound cool” but you have a lot to learn. Julia’s types are not like templates or generics in other languages, they can basically fit into any method-shaped hole. So, at a call site, there’s no way for me to intuitively reason about the data at play, because some_method() can be literally anything. Combine that with a lack of interfaces, and it’s just mangled up code all over the place. I’ve worked on codebases that stretch longer than my working career, I’ve worked on code where 100+ PhDs had left their mark in gnarly R/Matlab voodoo, I’ve worked on code that transacts hundreds of billions of tax dollars in a year, and much more. Julia is a specialized tool for HPC, and the illusion that multiple dispatch without interfaces can be used to build reliable, understandable, engineerable systems will die as surely as the sun sets each night. I’m not sure your background, and maybe HPC is your expertise or whatever. It seems like you need some better coworkers to learn from, or at least more variety in your intellectual diet.

cbkeller 4y ago
While I think I can see where you're coming from, I will say as a personal anecdote that at this point I do feel that I can intuitively reason about the data at play quite easily, and no longer ever find myself running into any confusion about which method will be called (I don't think I've even had to check my intuition on this point with `@which` in over a year) -- but it did take me about two solid years of using Julia for a serious part of my time to get here. It is, in my view, a fundamentally different programming paradigm that most of us have no previous built-up intuition for (unless perhaps you have spent lot of time with languages like Dylan or perhaps CLOS). But it is something you can learn and develop intuition for like anything else. For those still learning, I may also mention `@edit`, which will not just show you the method, but take you directly to the source code of the method being called -- which is something that remains quite useful even when your intuition is fully-developed.