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How would that have played out here? Would shutting up have resulted in less jail time? After he got out of jail, he "decided to find a lawyer. After weeks of

How would that have played out here? Would shutting up have resulted in less jail time? After he got out of jail, he "decided to find a lawyer. After weeks of searching for one he could afford, Lowe retained Palmer." What should have have done that while in jail?

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
I think there is some information missing. He would have been offered a public defender before the judge.
- lokar 4y ago
  Probably not until he made it to Texas.
  - staticautomatic 4y ago
    He would have been entitled to an attorney when he went before the NM judge if he’d asked for one. Whatever that proceeding was, it would definitely have triggered the right to counsel.
wbl 4y ago
Shutting up and asking for a lawyer even an overworked public defender would have gotten him better advice that would lead to him being arraigned and out on bail instead of letting his constitutional rights get violated for a fortnight.
teakettle42 4y ago
Reading between the lines, I would guess that this poor soul believed that the system is reasonable, and if he just had a chance to speak, everything would be cleared up. That's how a justice system should work, but that's not the reality. In fact, there never should have been an arrest warrant issued with such a weak "case" comprised entirely of exculpating evidence. What he should have done was stop speaking immediately, use the first available opportunity to call family, a friend, or anyone else capable of securing a competent defense attorney, and retained their services. Unfortunately, it can be hard to find a competent criminal attorney even when you're not in jail. If you unexpectedly find yourself in jail, you have no access to any resources other than a payphone, and whatever phone numbers the desk officer allowed you to copy out of your phone. All your outgoing calls use an exploitative collect-call system that charges obscene amounts and requires the receiver to listen to a robo-caller greeting — and set up an account with a credit card — before they can accept your call. If you received a random call from an unknown New Mexico number, with the caller ID of "Quay County Jail", would you even answer? If you answered, and heard a robocall announcement asking if you want to accept a collect call from an inmate, would you even wait for the message to finish? > What should have have done that while in jail? He should have found a lawyer as soon as he could — but that's easy to say when you're not experiencing the incredibly dehumanizing reality that is our criminal "justice" system.
- somenameforme 4y ago
  I'm not defending our system, but I do want to point out one problem with any ideal of how the system ought work. In reality, most of everybody will claim that they're innocent, including those that are not. And so from the perspective of anybody working in law enforcement/corrections, somebody claiming they're innocent is not only a criminal but a liar on top. And the vast majority of the time, they'd be right. And every system enabling you to challenge your detention is going to be built with the knowledge of the sort of system it's working within. I live abroad now and in the system here defendants who lie about their innocence will face greatly lengthened sentences, so most people not only don't bother lying, but actually have to reenact their crime for police. But of course the obvious problem there is that it greatly increases the risk for challenging any arrest when you actually are innocent, though for a case like this (where there was 0 argument whatsoever that he was guilty) - that would obviously be a better system.
  - rhinoceraptor 4y ago
    The police here are similarly allowed to lie. They're allowed to lie so forcefully that they're able to extract false confessions. It's not a rare occurrence.
- bubblethink 4y ago
  >If you received a random call from an unknown New Mexico number, with the caller ID of "Quay County Jail", would you even answer? If you answered, and heard a robocall announcement asking if you want to accept a collect call from an inmate, would you even wait for the message to finish? Is there a tech solution here ? I used to have an obi device that bridged pstn and voip lines and would do call forwarding. I suppose I can set up a DID number that can then patch to a real connection. The main issue would be automating the "accept collect call" part and avoiding abuse.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    It's not a tech solution because it's not a tech problem. The prisons don't use these convoluted solutions because they can't just use a normal phone and give the prisoners calls on a normal phone contract for free, they do it this way because it's profitable
alexb_ 4y ago
>Would shutting up have resulted in less jail time? Talking will never, absolutely never, result in anything but more jail time. There is absolutely zero benefit for you to answer police questions past basic things such as identifying yourself/things like showing license/registration at a traffic stop. At no point would talking ever make your case better.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  You are absolutely right. Also, it should be seen as a torture situation: they are professionals that will throw the full arsenal at you, including delaying your requests as long as they can get away with (I assume there can just lie about getting you a lawyer and have your requests memory holed. BTW do you even have rights to one depending on what form they took to keep you ?). They can put physical and mental pressure on you for days and days, and your only path is to shut up, if you’re not willing to give them what they want. And at no point you can afford to break down. Overall, that’s a stacked game I’m not sure you can really win depending on how dirty they want to play it, except if you get external help that they couldn’t shut down.

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago

I think there is some information missing. He would have been offered a public defender before the judge.

lokar 4y ago
Probably not until he made it to Texas.
- staticautomatic 4y ago
  He would have been entitled to an attorney when he went before the NM judge if he’d asked for one. Whatever that proceeding was, it would definitely have triggered the right to counsel.

wbl 4y ago

Shutting up and asking for a lawyer even an overworked public defender would have gotten him better advice that would lead to him being arraigned and out on bail instead of letting his constitutional rights get violated for a fortnight.

teakettle42 4y ago

Reading between the lines, I would guess that this poor soul believed that the system is reasonable, and if he just had a chance to speak, everything would be cleared up. That's how a justice system should work, but that's not the reality. In fact, there never should have been an arrest warrant issued with such a weak "case" comprised entirely of exculpating evidence. What he should have done was stop speaking immediately, use the first available opportunity to call family, a friend, or anyone else capable of securing a competent defense attorney, and retained their services. Unfortunately, it can be hard to find a competent criminal attorney even when you're not in jail. If you unexpectedly find yourself in jail, you have no access to any resources other than a payphone, and whatever phone numbers the desk officer allowed you to copy out of your phone. All your outgoing calls use an exploitative collect-call system that charges obscene amounts and requires the receiver to listen to a robo-caller greeting — and set up an account with a credit card — before they can accept your call. If you received a random call from an unknown New Mexico number, with the caller ID of "Quay County Jail", would you even answer? If you answered, and heard a robocall announcement asking if you want to accept a collect call from an inmate, would you even wait for the message to finish? > What should have have done that while in jail? He should have found a lawyer as soon as he could — but that's easy to say when you're not experiencing the incredibly dehumanizing reality that is our criminal "justice" system.

somenameforme 4y ago
I'm not defending our system, but I do want to point out one problem with any ideal of how the system ought work. In reality, most of everybody will claim that they're innocent, including those that are not. And so from the perspective of anybody working in law enforcement/corrections, somebody claiming they're innocent is not only a criminal but a liar on top. And the vast majority of the time, they'd be right. And every system enabling you to challenge your detention is going to be built with the knowledge of the sort of system it's working within. I live abroad now and in the system here defendants who lie about their innocence will face greatly lengthened sentences, so most people not only don't bother lying, but actually have to reenact their crime for police. But of course the obvious problem there is that it greatly increases the risk for challenging any arrest when you actually are innocent, though for a case like this (where there was 0 argument whatsoever that he was guilty) - that would obviously be a better system.
- rhinoceraptor 4y ago
  The police here are similarly allowed to lie. They're allowed to lie so forcefully that they're able to extract false confessions. It's not a rare occurrence.
bubblethink 4y ago
>If you received a random call from an unknown New Mexico number, with the caller ID of "Quay County Jail", would you even answer? If you answered, and heard a robocall announcement asking if you want to accept a collect call from an inmate, would you even wait for the message to finish? Is there a tech solution here ? I used to have an obi device that bridged pstn and voip lines and would do call forwarding. I suppose I can set up a DID number that can then patch to a real connection. The main issue would be automating the "accept collect call" part and avoiding abuse.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  It's not a tech solution because it's not a tech problem. The prisons don't use these convoluted solutions because they can't just use a normal phone and give the prisoners calls on a normal phone contract for free, they do it this way because it's profitable

alexb_ 4y ago

>Would shutting up have resulted in less jail time? Talking will never, absolutely never, result in anything but more jail time. There is absolutely zero benefit for you to answer police questions past basic things such as identifying yourself/things like showing license/registration at a traffic stop. At no point would talking ever make your case better.

makeitdouble 4y ago
You are absolutely right. Also, it should be seen as a torture situation: they are professionals that will throw the full arsenal at you, including delaying your requests as long as they can get away with (I assume there can just lie about getting you a lawyer and have your requests memory holed. BTW do you even have rights to one depending on what form they took to keep you ?). They can put physical and mental pressure on you for days and days, and your only path is to shut up, if you’re not willing to give them what they want. And at no point you can afford to break down. Overall, that’s a stacked game I’m not sure you can really win depending on how dirty they want to play it, except if you get external help that they couldn’t shut down.