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You will need to get you foot in the door somewhere by applying at the entry level, then build your reputation by making an impact. Take on projects without be

You will need to get you foot in the door somewhere by applying at the entry level, then build your reputation by making an impact. Take on projects without being asked. Seek forgiveness not permission. Even if your role is not tech focused or IT related you can make an impression. You clearly have some knowledge and experience, you're on HN, that alone shows that you've got the aptitude. Non-tech companies still need tech people, they just don't know how to hire them most of the time. Since you have been freelancing it for 13 years there isn't much you can say about the past that will impress a tech manager, but you should find some entry level positions that pay much more than you've been averaging. I work at a firm that isn't tech focused, and there are so many opportunities for anyone to engrain themselves into the business by creating a technical role for themselves. Spinning up web-apps, automation, even spreadsheet programming can make an impact and turn an internship or helpdesk position into full time employment.

KennyBlanken 4y ago
I'm going to take a wild guess that you're a boomer? The whole "start entry level, work your way up by impressing" thing doesn't work anymore. These days many companies for most of their entry level workforce just chew people up and spit them out, while fighting for top-skill young talent or older experts.
- yibg 4y ago
  This is an unnecessarily pessimistic take on jobs. Of course showing value still works. People advance and move up the ladder still. Besides, what do you suggest? Just give up?
  - KennyBlanken 4y ago
    > This is an unnecessarily pessimistic take on jobs. Welcome to the reality a whole lot of people 40-and-under are facing: https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector/our-insights/for-many-americans-economic-opportunity-seems-increasingly-out-of-reach https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector... Half of unemployed Americans are pessimistic about their outlook: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/02/10/unemployed-americans-are-feeling-the-emotional-strain-of-job-loss-most-have-considered-changing-occupations/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/02/10/unemployed-... Class mobility is falling, and has been for over a decade: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2018/06/05/seven-reasons-to-worry-about-the-american-middle-class/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2018/06... https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/social-mobility-upwards-decline-usa-us-america-economics/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/social-mobility-upwar... https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-t... https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-mobility-america/491240/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-... The US has some of the highest economic inequality in the world, and it's growing, with the top 10% of the population holding 70% of the wealth. The bottom 50% of the country hold less than 2.5% of the country's wealth: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-inequality-debate https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-inequality-debate https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/wealth-inequality-and-the-racial-wealth-gap-20211022.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/weal... > Of course showing value still works. People advance and move up the ladder still. Look around you; when is the last time any of your coworkers rose up through the ranks recently? Every time I hear someone talk about starting out in an entry-level position and working their way up through the ranks, it's someone substantially older than me, who "worked their way up" a decade or two ago. I've seen multiple discussions here and on reddit talking about how in the 90's and 2000's you could talk your way into a job (that day is long since gone), work your ass off, and get rewarded for it. Those days are long gone for all but top talent. For a lot of jobs, there is no ladder. And if there is a ladder, it's probably a short one, and one that only goes a specific route. Showing value to rise through the ranks only matters when someone is looking to promote within. Apple, Google, Facebook, etc all segregate their workers into castes, and you cannot cross caste lines. Even within the lowest caste, there's still rarely opportunity for advancement. Amazon for example loves to sell a lie that the offer education benefits (after a long period of employment) and opportunities for advancement to their warehouse workers...but the reality is that they rarely to never advance people, and internal documents show they plan on if not outright encourage people to burn out and leave after a year or so. This was in fact exactly why Amazon ended up with a union in its Staten Island warehouse. One of the guys who started the union did so because he was promised opportunity, worked his ass off, and saw supervisor positions get handed to fresh hires, and when he tried to apply to them, was told to buzz off. Companies churn their low-value employees on purpose. They even outsource the employment to an employment contractor so that someone else has to deal with all the paperwork and training. > Besides, what do you suggest? Just give up? I wasn't aware I had to come up with a solution in order to point out the problem?
    - yibg 4y ago
      Your rant doesn't match reality though, although it depends on what you mean by rising up the ranks. Do you consider directors and above rising up the ranks or are you talking about the C suite only? I know plenty of director and VP levels under 40 that got there recently (obviously given the age).
- icameron 4y ago
  Boomer? No, my parents are though. I’ve just had success by getting a job at 21 as one of the lowest paid positions, worked hard, took on projects above my pay grade, and was eventually rewarded for it. I’ve been associated with the same corporation in various roles for 17 years. I’ve seen graphics interns carve out positions as web developers, CAD technicians move up to engineers, and staff accountants become BI leaders. I have a buddy who started in sales support, had an opportunity to start managing and is now a VP. So in my experience it works to work hard. The thing all my anecdotes have in common is they don’t have any hint of a defeatist attitude.
  - yobbo 4y ago
    > getting a job at 21 as one of the lowest paid positions, worked hard, took on projects above my pay grade, and was eventually rewarded for it. This is how many people got their start, but it is rare for people to be rewarded unless the company is quickly growing a "bigger pie" of rewarding positions, or tradable CV item lines. And these are not easy to predict.
- tmp2343EU 4y ago
  I don't know where you live but reading this makes me happy my reality is much like OPs.
- snowwrestler 4y ago
  You are misunderstanding the advice. You don’t necessarily move up just within one company, and you don’t necessarily impress just your direct boss. But fundamentally, if a person has a weak resume, the only way to strengthen it is to do good work that has an impact. Then you get some more bullet points on the resume (and can drop some weak ones). And if you have a weak professional network, the only way to improve it is to actually work with people and impress them. You can build professional relationships that can lead to new opportunities, even with peers and people junior to you. Even if you get “spit out” after a year or two, you are better set to get a better job. This obviously can work because almost everyone starts out with a very weak resume and network. Yet, many people go on to build rewarding careers.

KennyBlanken 4y ago

I'm going to take a wild guess that you're a boomer? The whole "start entry level, work your way up by impressing" thing doesn't work anymore. These days many companies for most of their entry level workforce just chew people up and spit them out, while fighting for top-skill young talent or older experts.

yibg 4y ago
This is an unnecessarily pessimistic take on jobs. Of course showing value still works. People advance and move up the ladder still. Besides, what do you suggest? Just give up?
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  > This is an unnecessarily pessimistic take on jobs. Welcome to the reality a whole lot of people 40-and-under are facing: https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector/our-insights/for-many-americans-economic-opportunity-seems-increasingly-out-of-reach https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector... Half of unemployed Americans are pessimistic about their outlook: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/02/10/unemployed-americans-are-feeling-the-emotional-strain-of-job-loss-most-have-considered-changing-occupations/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/02/10/unemployed-... Class mobility is falling, and has been for over a decade: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2018/06/05/seven-reasons-to-worry-about-the-american-middle-class/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2018/06... https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/social-mobility-upwards-decline-usa-us-america-economics/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/social-mobility-upwar... https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-t... https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-mobility-america/491240/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-... The US has some of the highest economic inequality in the world, and it's growing, with the top 10% of the population holding 70% of the wealth. The bottom 50% of the country hold less than 2.5% of the country's wealth: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-inequality-debate https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-inequality-debate https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/wealth-inequality-and-the-racial-wealth-gap-20211022.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/weal... > Of course showing value still works. People advance and move up the ladder still. Look around you; when is the last time any of your coworkers rose up through the ranks recently? Every time I hear someone talk about starting out in an entry-level position and working their way up through the ranks, it's someone substantially older than me, who "worked their way up" a decade or two ago. I've seen multiple discussions here and on reddit talking about how in the 90's and 2000's you could talk your way into a job (that day is long since gone), work your ass off, and get rewarded for it. Those days are long gone for all but top talent. For a lot of jobs, there is no ladder. And if there is a ladder, it's probably a short one, and one that only goes a specific route. Showing value to rise through the ranks only matters when someone is looking to promote within. Apple, Google, Facebook, etc all segregate their workers into castes, and you cannot cross caste lines. Even within the lowest caste, there's still rarely opportunity for advancement. Amazon for example loves to sell a lie that the offer education benefits (after a long period of employment) and opportunities for advancement to their warehouse workers...but the reality is that they rarely to never advance people, and internal documents show they plan on if not outright encourage people to burn out and leave after a year or so. This was in fact exactly why Amazon ended up with a union in its Staten Island warehouse. One of the guys who started the union did so because he was promised opportunity, worked his ass off, and saw supervisor positions get handed to fresh hires, and when he tried to apply to them, was told to buzz off. Companies churn their low-value employees on purpose. They even outsource the employment to an employment contractor so that someone else has to deal with all the paperwork and training. > Besides, what do you suggest? Just give up? I wasn't aware I had to come up with a solution in order to point out the problem?
  - yibg 4y ago
    Your rant doesn't match reality though, although it depends on what you mean by rising up the ranks. Do you consider directors and above rising up the ranks or are you talking about the C suite only? I know plenty of director and VP levels under 40 that got there recently (obviously given the age).
icameron 4y ago
Boomer? No, my parents are though. I’ve just had success by getting a job at 21 as one of the lowest paid positions, worked hard, took on projects above my pay grade, and was eventually rewarded for it. I’ve been associated with the same corporation in various roles for 17 years. I’ve seen graphics interns carve out positions as web developers, CAD technicians move up to engineers, and staff accountants become BI leaders. I have a buddy who started in sales support, had an opportunity to start managing and is now a VP. So in my experience it works to work hard. The thing all my anecdotes have in common is they don’t have any hint of a defeatist attitude.
- yobbo 4y ago
  > getting a job at 21 as one of the lowest paid positions, worked hard, took on projects above my pay grade, and was eventually rewarded for it. This is how many people got their start, but it is rare for people to be rewarded unless the company is quickly growing a "bigger pie" of rewarding positions, or tradable CV item lines. And these are not easy to predict.
tmp2343EU 4y ago
I don't know where you live but reading this makes me happy my reality is much like OPs.
snowwrestler 4y ago
You are misunderstanding the advice. You don’t necessarily move up just within one company, and you don’t necessarily impress just your direct boss. But fundamentally, if a person has a weak resume, the only way to strengthen it is to do good work that has an impact. Then you get some more bullet points on the resume (and can drop some weak ones). And if you have a weak professional network, the only way to improve it is to actually work with people and impress them. You can build professional relationships that can lead to new opportunities, even with peers and people junior to you. Even if you get “spit out” after a year or two, you are better set to get a better job. This obviously can work because almost everyone starts out with a very weak resume and network. Yet, many people go on to build rewarding careers.