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So lets get it straight. Because Russia delivers goods to Germany, it is okey to support genocide it commits against Ukraine? This is what you want to say? You

So lets get it straight. Because Russia delivers goods to Germany, it is okey to support genocide it commits against Ukraine? This is what you want to say? You can't be serious, or you think what you say is demonstration of decent human being who supports European values? There is a major difference between Russia and Ukraine - willingness of Ukrainians to move toward European values while Russia is moving in other direction in light speed. Worse, Putin Russia is financing political instability in Europe by directly funding both far right and far left parties. But not only founding but giving them propaganda support through social media manipulations. There is another, strategical aspect that shows that we should really, really support Ukraine - its natural resources. If these fall into hands of Putin, he has even more control over Europe. With Ukraine Europe can become a democratic economical power house and leave Fascist Russia into isolation and this is what Putin fears the most and this is why Ukraine must win.

DocTomoe 4y ago
> Because Russia delivers goods to Germany, it is okey to support genocide it commits against Ukraine? "Genocide" is too often being used as a propaganda shell these days. What we see is a - very brutal - war. In Germany, we know what actual genocide looks like. > supports European values That's another word shell that, once you start digging, you realise means nothing. There is no such thing as "European values". There only are European interests. > willingness of Ukrainians to move toward European values while Russia is moving in other direction in light speed. Or, to express this in another way: One is willing to relinquish some level of control for decades of free EU monies, mostly originating from the tax coffers of Germany and France, while the other one has decided not to do so. > Worse, Putin Russia is financing political instability in Europe by directly funding both far right and far left parties. But not only founding but giving them propaganda support through social media manipulations. Welcome to politics. Do you really think for a second that "Radio Free Europe" was a fair and balanced station? That "Deutsche Welle" is? That all those "cultural institutes" we have all over the world just give language courses and local cuisine champagner parties? When I say "Nawalni" (a guy who by western standards should be considered a far-right at least) or "Chodorkovskij" (an even more colourful character), does it ring a bell? We cannot reasonably accuse Russia of doing something we ourselves are engaged in, and have been for decades. > There is another, strategical aspect that shows that we should really, really support Ukraine - its natural resources. Putin was happily enough selling us natural resources in the past. > With Ukraine Europe can become a democratic economical power house Even though they had all the options and support to become a democratic economical power house in the last thirty hears, and consistently failed to do so. Ukraine is a money grave with constant potential conflict. You and me disagree on if we need another Romania, or another Hungary, or another Poland.
- eveningcoffee 4y ago
  (1) Then you don't have paid enough attention if you think that you need to kill millions for "actual" genocide. Or do you think we should wait until it becomes "actual" genocide until we intervene? Or should we attempt to stop it directly? There have been multiple warnings by people seriously committed for human rights, but most importantly, parliaments of all Baltic states, Poland and Canada have already declared Russia's actions in Ukraine to be genocide based on evidence available. Here is an independent legal analysis if you think these declarations were just politically motivated. https://newlinesinstitute.org/russia/an-independent-legal-analysis-of-the-russian-federations-breaches-of-the-genocide-convention-in-ukraine-and-the-duty-to-prevent/ https://newlinesinstitute.org/russia/an-independent-legal-an... It is unacceptable that after largest recent genocide committed, Germany has become a genocide denier because it would be inconvenient to accept it because it would mean serious actions have to be taken to stop genocide continuing. (2) There exists very clear European values. These are valuing democratic governance, human rights, free movement of trade and people. (3) Oh, that is the problem? You are personally afraid that you will lose money with Ukraine and will gain with Russia, is this right? What you think, what countries are the net winners in this EU game, Germany and France or the others? Either way, see point (2). (4) And what bell should Navalny exactly ring? I know exactly what he is and it is irrelevant. He is repressed (mild label for attempted murder and political imprisonments, I guess) for being in opposition with the self appointed ruler, most importantly, for exposing corruption and having some level of actual political power regardless of his political views. Is it your opinion that we should tolerate this because you have labeled him as "far-right"? Do you realize that on the political spectrum of Russia, he is very far from far right? And what is in your opinion so colorful about Khodorkovsky? So we can't accuse Russia in attempt to destabilize our democracy because we are trying to protect its democracy? Sounds like a fair comparison, does it? So in your opinion we could also not accuse North Korea in cyber attacks because we are having economic sanctions against it? Is that right? (5) So in your opinion it is preferred for Europe to buy natural resources from a bloody genocidal despot instead of democratic nation that is in union with Europe and not in opposition and in constant attempt to undermine it? (6) Do you think is there anything to do with Russian influence in Ukraine why it has been constantly in miserable state, or not? But my point was not about Ukraine but about Europe. If Russia is cut off from European revenue from natural resources because Europe can satisfy its needs internally then it will become democratic economical power house. Get it?

DocTomoe 4y ago

> Because Russia delivers goods to Germany, it is okey to support genocide it commits against Ukraine? "Genocide" is too often being used as a propaganda shell these days. What we see is a - very brutal - war. In Germany, we know what actual genocide looks like. > supports European values That's another word shell that, once you start digging, you realise means nothing. There is no such thing as "European values". There only are European interests. > willingness of Ukrainians to move toward European values while Russia is moving in other direction in light speed. Or, to express this in another way: One is willing to relinquish some level of control for decades of free EU monies, mostly originating from the tax coffers of Germany and France, while the other one has decided not to do so. > Worse, Putin Russia is financing political instability in Europe by directly funding both far right and far left parties. But not only founding but giving them propaganda support through social media manipulations. Welcome to politics. Do you really think for a second that "Radio Free Europe" was a fair and balanced station? That "Deutsche Welle" is? That all those "cultural institutes" we have all over the world just give language courses and local cuisine champagner parties? When I say "Nawalni" (a guy who by western standards should be considered a far-right at least) or "Chodorkovskij" (an even more colourful character), does it ring a bell? We cannot reasonably accuse Russia of doing something we ourselves are engaged in, and have been for decades. > There is another, strategical aspect that shows that we should really, really support Ukraine - its natural resources. Putin was happily enough selling us natural resources in the past. > With Ukraine Europe can become a democratic economical power house Even though they had all the options and support to become a democratic economical power house in the last thirty hears, and consistently failed to do so. Ukraine is a money grave with constant potential conflict. You and me disagree on if we need another Romania, or another Hungary, or another Poland.

eveningcoffee 4y ago
(1) Then you don't have paid enough attention if you think that you need to kill millions for "actual" genocide. Or do you think we should wait until it becomes "actual" genocide until we intervene? Or should we attempt to stop it directly? There have been multiple warnings by people seriously committed for human rights, but most importantly, parliaments of all Baltic states, Poland and Canada have already declared Russia's actions in Ukraine to be genocide based on evidence available. Here is an independent legal analysis if you think these declarations were just politically motivated. https://newlinesinstitute.org/russia/an-independent-legal-analysis-of-the-russian-federations-breaches-of-the-genocide-convention-in-ukraine-and-the-duty-to-prevent/ https://newlinesinstitute.org/russia/an-independent-legal-an... It is unacceptable that after largest recent genocide committed, Germany has become a genocide denier because it would be inconvenient to accept it because it would mean serious actions have to be taken to stop genocide continuing. (2) There exists very clear European values. These are valuing democratic governance, human rights, free movement of trade and people. (3) Oh, that is the problem? You are personally afraid that you will lose money with Ukraine and will gain with Russia, is this right? What you think, what countries are the net winners in this EU game, Germany and France or the others? Either way, see point (2). (4) And what bell should Navalny exactly ring? I know exactly what he is and it is irrelevant. He is repressed (mild label for attempted murder and political imprisonments, I guess) for being in opposition with the self appointed ruler, most importantly, for exposing corruption and having some level of actual political power regardless of his political views. Is it your opinion that we should tolerate this because you have labeled him as "far-right"? Do you realize that on the political spectrum of Russia, he is very far from far right? And what is in your opinion so colorful about Khodorkovsky? So we can't accuse Russia in attempt to destabilize our democracy because we are trying to protect its democracy? Sounds like a fair comparison, does it? So in your opinion we could also not accuse North Korea in cyber attacks because we are having economic sanctions against it? Is that right? (5) So in your opinion it is preferred for Europe to buy natural resources from a bloody genocidal despot instead of democratic nation that is in union with Europe and not in opposition and in constant attempt to undermine it? (6) Do you think is there anything to do with Russian influence in Ukraine why it has been constantly in miserable state, or not? But my point was not about Ukraine but about Europe. If Russia is cut off from European revenue from natural resources because Europe can satisfy its needs internally then it will become democratic economical power house. Get it?