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It's impossible to not be embodied. Controlling CPU and other hardware like motherboard and computer screen is an embodiment. Why would moving physical objects

It's impossible to not be embodied. Controlling CPU and other hardware like motherboard and computer screen is an embodiment. Why would moving physical objects like electrons by micro meters not be good enough, but by meters it would?

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
It's not micrometers vs meters, or electrons vs macro objects. It's primarily a matter of sensor density. That is, I feel my fingers move in a way that a CPU does not feel an electron move. When I speak, I experience far more than a CPU experiences writing some bits to some output ports. And so on. Does that mean that embodiment is required? No. But your definition of "embodied" misses the point of the discussion.
- UmbertoNoEco 4y ago
  It's trivial to give a regular CPU better sensing than you in dozens of variables (pressure, temperature, voltage, CO concentration, etc), so your point is rather weak.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    I absolutely agree. You can, and better than humans. Not only better for any one sense, but also more senses than humans have. But that isn't what Isinlor was talking about. They said "moving electrons around" within the normal CPU circuitry as if that was the same as actuators controlling the external world. It's not.
    - UmbertoNoEco 4y ago
      Moving electrons in silicon circuits = Moving K+ and Na+ ions in cells. Same principle. There is nothing inherently special, sacred or non-physical about our circuits. They are very energy efficient (compared to current standards), highly parallel and it is a kluge hard to reverse-engineer but other than that they are sensors, processors and actuators. This blueprint is universal, trivially so.
    - Isinlor 4y ago
      As UmbertoNoEco says, CPUs absolutely are actuators controlling flow of electrons. In fact a single transistor is both a sensor and actuator. In fact you can use them to do things they were not designed to do like trough row hammer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row_hammer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row_hammer CPUs can also detect things like collisions with cosmic rays. CPUs just can't produce macroscopic forces relevant on human scale.
  - namlem 4y ago
    Sensation isn't the issue here, perception is.
    - UmbertoNoEco 4y ago
      "Chemistry is not the issue, life is"
- K0SM0S 4y ago
  Exactly. The baseline assumption in modern neurology is that meaning, for living things, is derived from their physical experience of the world. In short that no paper definition can ever substitute for experiencing first-hand what the "effect" of something is, what it does to you or to the world and what that entails for your body, your life. That is what "knowing" and "meaning" ultimately are. These experiences are the basis for associations in our constant cognitive (and emotional, instinctive, sensory, symbolic, etc) modelling of the world. Associations beget complexity (dimensionality, modalities) of the model. Hence, "finely tuned" or "high definition" i.e. ever more "advanced" intelligences. Given the overall crudeness and extreme simplicity of a CPU (or any man-made machine) compared to any living organism, I'm actually willing to bet that should CPU-based AI's "feel" something, it's on the order of 1/100th of what a shrimp feels, and they'd develop real-world intelligence at that level. Infinitely smarter than a potato, yet infinitely dumber than a fish. You don't run ape software on amoeba hardware.
- Isinlor 4y ago
  You will also encounter issues here. Transistor is a sensor. It detects voltage on the base pin. Transistor density and so sensor density on a modern CPU is really high. In fact modern CPU transistor density is 3 orders of magnitude higher than nerve density even on your retina. It's at the order of ~100,000 rods/mm^2 for retina and ~100,000,000 transistors/mm^2 for modern CPU.
Baeocystin 4y ago
It's not that the computation is physical that matters- it's the feedback and interaction from the world at human scales that a physical form would provide. The assumption is that anchoring an AGI to our scale will lead to human-scale perception and solutions.
- Isinlor 4y ago
  Sure, no argument here. But the question "Can a CPU experience qualia?" can not be answered by saying: "no, because CPU computation exists on some platonic ideas plane". Computation is physical both in brain and in silica.
erikpukinskis 4y ago
You are technically correct, but there is an implied locus when people say something is "intelligence". The ghosts in Super Mario World are "intelligent" and "embodied" in Super Mario World, but they are not "embodied" on Earth and thus cannot be "intelligent" there. The "G" in AGI implies intelligence on Earth, not in a video game.
- Isinlor 4y ago
  Super Mario World is on Earth, unless you run it on ISS.
  - erikpukinskis 4y ago
    No, the computer that runs it is on Earth, but Mario’s actual world is nowhere on earth, it’s a fully distinct reality.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago

It's not micrometers vs meters, or electrons vs macro objects. It's primarily a matter of sensor density. That is, I feel my fingers move in a way that a CPU does not feel an electron move. When I speak, I experience far more than a CPU experiences writing some bits to some output ports. And so on. Does that mean that embodiment is required? No. But your definition of "embodied" misses the point of the discussion.

UmbertoNoEco 4y ago
It's trivial to give a regular CPU better sensing than you in dozens of variables (pressure, temperature, voltage, CO concentration, etc), so your point is rather weak.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  I absolutely agree. You can, and better than humans. Not only better for any one sense, but also more senses than humans have. But that isn't what Isinlor was talking about. They said "moving electrons around" within the normal CPU circuitry as if that was the same as actuators controlling the external world. It's not.
  - UmbertoNoEco 4y ago
    Moving electrons in silicon circuits = Moving K+ and Na+ ions in cells. Same principle. There is nothing inherently special, sacred or non-physical about our circuits. They are very energy efficient (compared to current standards), highly parallel and it is a kluge hard to reverse-engineer but other than that they are sensors, processors and actuators. This blueprint is universal, trivially so.
  - Isinlor 4y ago
    As UmbertoNoEco says, CPUs absolutely are actuators controlling flow of electrons. In fact a single transistor is both a sensor and actuator. In fact you can use them to do things they were not designed to do like trough row hammer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row_hammer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row_hammer CPUs can also detect things like collisions with cosmic rays. CPUs just can't produce macroscopic forces relevant on human scale.
- namlem 4y ago
  Sensation isn't the issue here, perception is.
  - UmbertoNoEco 4y ago
    "Chemistry is not the issue, life is"
K0SM0S 4y ago
Exactly. The baseline assumption in modern neurology is that meaning, for living things, is derived from their physical experience of the world. In short that no paper definition can ever substitute for experiencing first-hand what the "effect" of something is, what it does to you or to the world and what that entails for your body, your life. That is what "knowing" and "meaning" ultimately are. These experiences are the basis for associations in our constant cognitive (and emotional, instinctive, sensory, symbolic, etc) modelling of the world. Associations beget complexity (dimensionality, modalities) of the model. Hence, "finely tuned" or "high definition" i.e. ever more "advanced" intelligences. Given the overall crudeness and extreme simplicity of a CPU (or any man-made machine) compared to any living organism, I'm actually willing to bet that should CPU-based AI's "feel" something, it's on the order of 1/100th of what a shrimp feels, and they'd develop real-world intelligence at that level. Infinitely smarter than a potato, yet infinitely dumber than a fish. You don't run ape software on amoeba hardware.
Isinlor 4y ago
You will also encounter issues here. Transistor is a sensor. It detects voltage on the base pin. Transistor density and so sensor density on a modern CPU is really high. In fact modern CPU transistor density is 3 orders of magnitude higher than nerve density even on your retina. It's at the order of ~100,000 rods/mm^2 for retina and ~100,000,000 transistors/mm^2 for modern CPU.

Baeocystin 4y ago

It's not that the computation is physical that matters- it's the feedback and interaction from the world at human scales that a physical form would provide. The assumption is that anchoring an AGI to our scale will lead to human-scale perception and solutions.

Isinlor 4y ago
Sure, no argument here. But the question "Can a CPU experience qualia?" can not be answered by saying: "no, because CPU computation exists on some platonic ideas plane". Computation is physical both in brain and in silica.

erikpukinskis 4y ago

You are technically correct, but there is an implied locus when people say something is "intelligence". The ghosts in Super Mario World are "intelligent" and "embodied" in Super Mario World, but they are not "embodied" on Earth and thus cannot be "intelligent" there. The "G" in AGI implies intelligence on Earth, not in a video game.

Isinlor 4y ago
Super Mario World is on Earth, unless you run it on ISS.
- erikpukinskis 4y ago
  No, the computer that runs it is on Earth, but Mario’s actual world is nowhere on earth, it’s a fully distinct reality.