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One of the two main cited reasons people prefer Macs was this: > Many of today's corporate PCs are saddled with management, backup, and security agents that ca

One of the two main cited reasons people prefer Macs was this: > Many of today's corporate PCs are saddled with management, backup, and security agents that can bog down a PC. Employees want their PCs to boot in 10 seconds, not 10 minutes...They're drawn to uncluttered Macs... I don't see how this shows superiority of Mac over PC; presumably if the Mac were running this software it would have these problems too.

Samuel_Michon 15y ago
The difference: when you use a Mac, you don't need that software. - You don't need to run third party antivirus or antispyware software on the client, only on your mail server (to protect Windows users if you forward Windows executables). OS X has built-in malware protection. - You don't need third party management software, you can use NetInstall/NetBoot or ARD. - Using NetBoot also solves the backup problem on the client, even though OS X does have built-in backup and recovery solutions built-in (Time Machine, Versions). In other words, there are no add-on services needed that would bog down the system.
- fname 15y ago
  I'm also pretty sure that once MacOS starts becoming prevalent in the enterprise, they'll eventually need antivirus, back up agents, and some sort of management agent as well. How would an IT organization manage the settings on the OS without some sort of management agent?
  - tomkarlo 15y ago
    At what point are we going to get over the concept that Macs don't have virus issues because there's not popular enough yet? I feel like I've been hearing that chestnut for a decade now. There are already IT management tools for Macs. I've worked at two large companies in a row (25k+ employees) where a large percentage of the company was using Macs (~30% or more) and they both had established management solutions that didn't bork the user experience on Macs. I'm typing this on a managed Macbook Air right now. As for backups, those agents exist but they're rapidly growing less relevant as the majority of documents and work are either web-based or on servers anyway. If I somehow lost this computer, I'd be bummed to have to do some preferences setup again, but I wouldn't lose any work.
    - dredmorbius 15y ago
      At what point are we going to get over the concept that Macs don't have virus issues because there's not popular enough yet? I feel like I've been hearing that chestnut for a decade now. Excuse me son, but would you mind standing in line behind those Linux guys over there? They've been putting up with this longer than you have.
    - WayneDB 15y ago
      Why are Banks known for getting robbed more often than Bakeries? That's where the money is. The reason you've been hearing about Mac popularity with regards to viruses is because it's true, despite the fact that you'd like to think otherwise. The fact is that Mac market share is still only around ~15% in the US and much less than that worldwide. That is about triple the market share that they had ten years ago. Also - Ever heard of Pwn2Own? The Mac has fallen first every year.
      - Samuel_Michon 15y ago
        "Why are Banks known for getting robbed more often than Bakeries?" Because of Hollywood movies? It isn't actually true. Of all robberies in the US, only 2.1% targets a bank. Shops (including bakeries) are targeted far more often, 14.3% of the time. Gas stations are robbed more often than banks, and convenience stores are even 2.5 times more likely to get robbed. [1] The number of bank robberies is on the rise, but that's not because "that's where the money is". It's because the number of bank branches has grown rapidly, banks have standardized floor plans, and banks have procedures to deal with robbers (= just give them the money). [2] To further break down some bank robbery myths: nearly 80 percent of bank robberies are committed by one person. 70 percent of bank robbers are unarmed offenders who do not use or even threaten violence. About 60 percent of bank robbers do not bother with disguises; only 7 percent of robbers in Florida did. And finally, more than 80 percent of arrested bank robbers have no prior convictions for bank crime. [1] http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/violent_crime/robbery.html http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/violent_crime/robber... [2] http://www.popcenter.org/problems/robbery_banks/2 http://www.popcenter.org/problems/robbery_banks/2
  - Samuel_Michon 15y ago
    They wouldn't. They would use Apple's Server Admin Tools (a free download) [1] and Lion Server's Profile Manager [2]. My point wasn't that Macs don't need management, anti-malware or back up software. It is that you don't need third party software that bogs down your system. [1] http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1457 http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1457 [2] http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/features/ http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/features/
- TruthElixirX 15y ago
  I'm pretty sure Macs still need to be backed up and managed. And probably need securing from various perspectives.
- cbs 15y ago
  Macs in the enterprise don't need management, backup or security software? You're fucking around, right? Even in my personal limited deployment of macs, they're managed by joining the domain and ssh access. They're backed up with a combination of rsync and a home-rolled login hook/git solution. Given the recent malware hitting the internet for macs, our aggressive firewalling already doesn't cut it for security. Once they're no longer flying under the radar, they're going to become saddled with aggressive business requirements or not be adopted (without AD support, they wouldn't have the limited corporate adoption they already do). As much as you might like to tell yourself macs are free-wheeling will never get that burden, they're already in my directory. Every time a problem comes up, they're going to continue to lose their purity, one GPO at a time. edit: after re-reading your post and some of the others in the thread you seem to be saying they don't need 3rd party tools. Nether does a windows domain. Sometimes we find we want more functionality though. Apple first parties different areas for the mac, and thats good, but you're still eventually going to need to leave the garden. Frankly their 1st-party security sucks, I'm glad to see they're putting a lot of effort into building up that area of their company, but as far as I'm concerned their current offering is about as good as no security.
  - lloeki 15y ago
    > "Given the recent malware hitting the internet for macs, our aggressive firewalling already doesn't cut it for security". Three odd trojans that need to be explicitly user-installed, rarely if ever met in the wild, and blocked by the daily-updated system are a threat to your über-firewall? I'm not downplaying the recent evolution in the area, but up until now you have to admit it's a dud. > "They're backed up with a combination of rsync and a home-rolled login hook/git solution" You do know that Time Machine works perfectly fine on spare bundles over AFP network shares, right? Besides, I wonder if your homebrew rsync solution handles hardlinks correctly in addition to alternate file streams and HFS+ extended attributes. I also wonder what your typical recovery scenarios look like. > "Nether does a windows domain" Any Windows computer needs at least an antivirus to combat the daily flow of trojans, and viruses, and worms. (And yes MSE is third-aprty in the sense that it's not there right from the start, enabled by default). Given the current state of OS X malware, I'd venture to say that the current state of security in OS X is way more than adequate, out to the box. As for general maintenance, manageability and user assistance, my experience has been such as it is one or two orders of magnitude down from Windows.
- r00fus 15y ago
  > - You don't need to run third party antivirus or antispyware software on the client, only on your mail server (to protect Windows users if you forward Windows executables). OS X has built-in malware protection. I hope you realize Apple itself runs antivirus for their corporate MBPs... likely because like any monoculture, any viral malware could cause disastrous results.
  - redler 15y ago
    I hadn't heard this. Can you describe what they do in more detail?
    - hexley 15y ago
      Pretty sure he can't
  - wooster 15y ago
    Apple itself runs antivirus for their corporate MBPs Not AFAIK. Certainly not within engineering.
- mikeash 15y ago
  > OS X has built-in malware protection. That's not really true. OS X doesn't generally suffer from malware purely because there isn't much Mac malware out there. It's only difficult to get infected with malware because it's difficult to find the stuff. But it's actually pretty easy to write the stuff, if one were so inclined.
  - wooster 15y ago
    Just a nit: OS X does have very basic built-in malware protection in the form of File Quarantine.

Samuel_Michon 15y ago

The difference: when you use a Mac, you don't need that software. - You don't need to run third party antivirus or antispyware software on the client, only on your mail server (to protect Windows users if you forward Windows executables). OS X has built-in malware protection. - You don't need third party management software, you can use NetInstall/NetBoot or ARD. - Using NetBoot also solves the backup problem on the client, even though OS X does have built-in backup and recovery solutions built-in (Time Machine, Versions). In other words, there are no add-on services needed that would bog down the system.

fname 15y ago
I'm also pretty sure that once MacOS starts becoming prevalent in the enterprise, they'll eventually need antivirus, back up agents, and some sort of management agent as well. How would an IT organization manage the settings on the OS without some sort of management agent?
- tomkarlo 15y ago
  At what point are we going to get over the concept that Macs don't have virus issues because there's not popular enough yet? I feel like I've been hearing that chestnut for a decade now. There are already IT management tools for Macs. I've worked at two large companies in a row (25k+ employees) where a large percentage of the company was using Macs (~30% or more) and they both had established management solutions that didn't bork the user experience on Macs. I'm typing this on a managed Macbook Air right now. As for backups, those agents exist but they're rapidly growing less relevant as the majority of documents and work are either web-based or on servers anyway. If I somehow lost this computer, I'd be bummed to have to do some preferences setup again, but I wouldn't lose any work.
  - dredmorbius 15y ago
    At what point are we going to get over the concept that Macs don't have virus issues because there's not popular enough yet? I feel like I've been hearing that chestnut for a decade now. Excuse me son, but would you mind standing in line behind those Linux guys over there? They've been putting up with this longer than you have.
  - WayneDB 15y ago
    Why are Banks known for getting robbed more often than Bakeries? That's where the money is. The reason you've been hearing about Mac popularity with regards to viruses is because it's true, despite the fact that you'd like to think otherwise. The fact is that Mac market share is still only around ~15% in the US and much less than that worldwide. That is about triple the market share that they had ten years ago. Also - Ever heard of Pwn2Own? The Mac has fallen first every year.
    - Samuel_Michon 15y ago
      "Why are Banks known for getting robbed more often than Bakeries?" Because of Hollywood movies? It isn't actually true. Of all robberies in the US, only 2.1% targets a bank. Shops (including bakeries) are targeted far more often, 14.3% of the time. Gas stations are robbed more often than banks, and convenience stores are even 2.5 times more likely to get robbed. [1] The number of bank robberies is on the rise, but that's not because "that's where the money is". It's because the number of bank branches has grown rapidly, banks have standardized floor plans, and banks have procedures to deal with robbers (= just give them the money). [2] To further break down some bank robbery myths: nearly 80 percent of bank robberies are committed by one person. 70 percent of bank robbers are unarmed offenders who do not use or even threaten violence. About 60 percent of bank robbers do not bother with disguises; only 7 percent of robbers in Florida did. And finally, more than 80 percent of arrested bank robbers have no prior convictions for bank crime. [1] http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/violent_crime/robbery.html http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/violent_crime/robber... [2] http://www.popcenter.org/problems/robbery_banks/2 http://www.popcenter.org/problems/robbery_banks/2
- Samuel_Michon 15y ago
  They wouldn't. They would use Apple's Server Admin Tools (a free download) [1] and Lion Server's Profile Manager [2]. My point wasn't that Macs don't need management, anti-malware or back up software. It is that you don't need third party software that bogs down your system. [1] http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1457 http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1457 [2] http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/features/ http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/features/
TruthElixirX 15y ago
I'm pretty sure Macs still need to be backed up and managed. And probably need securing from various perspectives.
cbs 15y ago
Macs in the enterprise don't need management, backup or security software? You're fucking around, right? Even in my personal limited deployment of macs, they're managed by joining the domain and ssh access. They're backed up with a combination of rsync and a home-rolled login hook/git solution. Given the recent malware hitting the internet for macs, our aggressive firewalling already doesn't cut it for security. Once they're no longer flying under the radar, they're going to become saddled with aggressive business requirements or not be adopted (without AD support, they wouldn't have the limited corporate adoption they already do). As much as you might like to tell yourself macs are free-wheeling will never get that burden, they're already in my directory. Every time a problem comes up, they're going to continue to lose their purity, one GPO at a time. edit: after re-reading your post and some of the others in the thread you seem to be saying they don't need 3rd party tools. Nether does a windows domain. Sometimes we find we want more functionality though. Apple first parties different areas for the mac, and thats good, but you're still eventually going to need to leave the garden. Frankly their 1st-party security sucks, I'm glad to see they're putting a lot of effort into building up that area of their company, but as far as I'm concerned their current offering is about as good as no security.
- lloeki 15y ago
  > "Given the recent malware hitting the internet for macs, our aggressive firewalling already doesn't cut it for security". Three odd trojans that need to be explicitly user-installed, rarely if ever met in the wild, and blocked by the daily-updated system are a threat to your über-firewall? I'm not downplaying the recent evolution in the area, but up until now you have to admit it's a dud. > "They're backed up with a combination of rsync and a home-rolled login hook/git solution" You do know that Time Machine works perfectly fine on spare bundles over AFP network shares, right? Besides, I wonder if your homebrew rsync solution handles hardlinks correctly in addition to alternate file streams and HFS+ extended attributes. I also wonder what your typical recovery scenarios look like. > "Nether does a windows domain" Any Windows computer needs at least an antivirus to combat the daily flow of trojans, and viruses, and worms. (And yes MSE is third-aprty in the sense that it's not there right from the start, enabled by default). Given the current state of OS X malware, I'd venture to say that the current state of security in OS X is way more than adequate, out to the box. As for general maintenance, manageability and user assistance, my experience has been such as it is one or two orders of magnitude down from Windows.
r00fus 15y ago
> - You don't need to run third party antivirus or antispyware software on the client, only on your mail server (to protect Windows users if you forward Windows executables). OS X has built-in malware protection. I hope you realize Apple itself runs antivirus for their corporate MBPs... likely because like any monoculture, any viral malware could cause disastrous results.
- redler 15y ago
  I hadn't heard this. Can you describe what they do in more detail?
  - hexley 15y ago
    Pretty sure he can't
- wooster 15y ago
  Apple itself runs antivirus for their corporate MBPs Not AFAIK. Certainly not within engineering.
mikeash 15y ago
> OS X has built-in malware protection. That's not really true. OS X doesn't generally suffer from malware purely because there isn't much Mac malware out there. It's only difficult to get infected with malware because it's difficult to find the stuff. But it's actually pretty easy to write the stuff, if one were so inclined.
- wooster 15y ago
  Just a nit: OS X does have very basic built-in malware protection in the form of File Quarantine.