5 ms·

In my experience (decades of direct interaction) most of the FAA is a model of professionalism in civil service. But there are pockets of sheer insanity, usuall

by _moof 4y ago

In my experience (decades of direct interaction) most of the FAA is a model of professionalism in civil service. But there are pockets of sheer insanity, usually due to perverse incentives like what you're describing. This whole fiasco has all the hallmarks of pathological risk-aversion. No one wants to be the one who said "yes" because there's no punishment for saying "no." The FAA's approach to risk management is, in general, second-to-none, but when it isn't paired with a mission assurance mindset, you get pathological outcomes like this.

KennyBlanken 4y ago
Allowing two inspectors to pursue personal grudges against one of the most beloved figures in US aviation: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=FAA+bob+hoover https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=FAA+bob+hoover Five hundred and thirty seven people killed from the 737 max scandal, which showed the FAA was basically not providing any oversight of Boeing whatsoever, and even worse, was complicit in coverups: https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/18/22189609/faa-boeing-737-max-senate-report-coverup-tests-whistleblowers https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/18/22189609/faa-boeing-737-... Furthermore, the FAA was the last national agency in the world to ban the 737 Max from flying. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/business/boeing-737-crashes.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/business/boeing-737... That lack of supervision included the FAA providing little or no oversight over Boeing using lithium ion batteries without sufficient testing, resulting in several fires on airliners. Treating air traffic controllers so poorly - including underpaying them by nearly thirty percent, that they went on strike, and refusing to give them a shorter work week to compensate for the high stress nature of the job: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Contr... and since then, we've had decades upon decades of overworked, overstressed, understaffed air traffic controllers, which results in problems ranging from crashes due to errors to falling asleep to substance abuse: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=FAA+air+traffic+controllers+sleeping https://duckduckgo.com/?q=FAA+air+traffic+controllers+sleepi... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=FAA+air+traffic+controllers+drunk https://duckduckgo.com/?q=FAA+air+traffic+controllers+drunk A controller in Las Vegas has a stroke and was speaking gibberish for half an hour before anyone in the control tower noticed, likely because she was working alone and unsupervised. Am I forgetting anything? "Model of professionalism in civil service" my ass. This debacle over fueling is just yet another way the FAA has pointlessly stood in the way of progress to protect vested industry interests. FAA regulations are rife with all sorts of absurd shit barring a private pilot from modernizing their planes in cost effective manner or enhancing them with greater avionics capabilities.
- _moof 4y ago
  > Am I forgetting anything? Yes, the words "most" and "pockets of sheer insanity." I am not so simple-minded as to view an entire agency as a single, atomic entity. I recognize what they do well and am one of the harshest critics of what they do poorly, especially when the results are death. This is something I hoped I had conveyed in my original post.
  - someguydave 4y ago
    I am willing to risk some deaths in exchange for technological improvements.
    - wolverine876 4y ago
      You are free to risk your own, but not mine.
      - xyzzyz 4y ago
        He is not, in fact, free to risk his own, that’s the entire point.
        wolverine876 4y ago
        Sure they are. They can be a test pilot, jump off a cliff in a flight suit, whatever they like. Don't risk my life though.
        xyzzyz 4y ago
        > [you] can (…) jump off a cliff in a flight suit, This is in fact an argument against FAA: you can risk your life in many other ways in many other contexts not regulated by FAA, so why not be allowed to risk your own life in a regulated field?
        wolverine876 4y ago
NonNefarious 4y ago
Disagree. They've betrayed the aviation community more than once in recent times. Let's go back a few years to when Michael Huerta sold everyone out by striking a secret back-room deal with the Santa Monica city council to give one of our iconic (and federally-owned) GA airports to corrupt local politicians to be destroyed. Oh, AND he allowed the city to shorten the runway to make it unusable to some jets. Why do BOTH? Shortening the runway eliminated the only shred of a basis for complaint coming from anyone in the area, so there was no excuse for any further selling-out. To this day we don't know exactly what kind of political quid pro quos took place in this shameful episode. Then there was the ridiculous ruling that it was illegal for people to receive pilot training in their own airplanes, contradicting decades of prior practice and rule interpretation. That had to be undone by Congress: https://www.flyingmag.com/flight-instruction-faa/ https://www.flyingmag.com/flight-instruction-faa/ And recently there was a ruling that essentially made go-arounds (aborted landings) illegal (if the testimony here is true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpFDRoStcd4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpFDRoStcd4 ). I had faith the FAA once. No more.
- NonNefarious 4y ago
  - nameless912 4y ago
    The fact that basicmed contained absolutely no affordances for well-managed mental health conditions shows that basicmed was also a serious administrative failure, though.
    - NonNefarious 4y ago
      That does indeed sound like a failing.
- jhugo 4y ago
  > And recently there was a ruling that essentially made go-arounds (aborted landings) illegal (if the testimony here is true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpFDRoStcd4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpFDRoStcd4 ). Why not link to the actual ruling instead of some random YouTube video when making such a far-fetched claim?

by _moof 4y ago

KennyBlanken 4y ago

Allowing two inspectors to pursue personal grudges against one of the most beloved figures in US aviation: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=FAA+bob+hoover https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=FAA+bob+hoover Five hundred and thirty seven people killed from the 737 max scandal, which showed the FAA was basically not providing any oversight of Boeing whatsoever, and even worse, was complicit in coverups: https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/18/22189609/faa-boeing-737-max-senate-report-coverup-tests-whistleblowers https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/18/22189609/faa-boeing-737-... Furthermore, the FAA was the last national agency in the world to ban the 737 Max from flying. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/business/boeing-737-crashes.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/business/boeing-737... That lack of supervision included the FAA providing little or no oversight over Boeing using lithium ion batteries without sufficient testing, resulting in several fires on airliners. Treating air traffic controllers so poorly - including underpaying them by nearly thirty percent, that they went on strike, and refusing to give them a shorter work week to compensate for the high stress nature of the job: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Contr... and since then, we've had decades upon decades of overworked, overstressed, understaffed air traffic controllers, which results in problems ranging from crashes due to errors to falling asleep to substance abuse: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=FAA+air+traffic+controllers+sleeping https://duckduckgo.com/?q=FAA+air+traffic+controllers+sleepi... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=FAA+air+traffic+controllers+drunk https://duckduckgo.com/?q=FAA+air+traffic+controllers+drunk A controller in Las Vegas has a stroke and was speaking gibberish for half an hour before anyone in the control tower noticed, likely because she was working alone and unsupervised. Am I forgetting anything? "Model of professionalism in civil service" my ass. This debacle over fueling is just yet another way the FAA has pointlessly stood in the way of progress to protect vested industry interests. FAA regulations are rife with all sorts of absurd shit barring a private pilot from modernizing their planes in cost effective manner or enhancing them with greater avionics capabilities.

_moof 4y ago
> Am I forgetting anything? Yes, the words "most" and "pockets of sheer insanity." I am not so simple-minded as to view an entire agency as a single, atomic entity. I recognize what they do well and am one of the harshest critics of what they do poorly, especially when the results are death. This is something I hoped I had conveyed in my original post.
- someguydave 4y ago
  I am willing to risk some deaths in exchange for technological improvements.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    You are free to risk your own, but not mine.
    - xyzzyz 4y ago
      He is not, in fact, free to risk his own, that’s the entire point.
      - wolverine876 4y ago
        Sure they are. They can be a test pilot, jump off a cliff in a flight suit, whatever they like. Don't risk my life though.
        xyzzyz 4y ago
        > [you] can (…) jump off a cliff in a flight suit, This is in fact an argument against FAA: you can risk your life in many other ways in many other contexts not regulated by FAA, so why not be allowed to risk your own life in a regulated field?
        wolverine876 4y ago

NonNefarious 4y ago

Disagree. They've betrayed the aviation community more than once in recent times. Let's go back a few years to when Michael Huerta sold everyone out by striking a secret back-room deal with the Santa Monica city council to give one of our iconic (and federally-owned) GA airports to corrupt local politicians to be destroyed. Oh, AND he allowed the city to shorten the runway to make it unusable to some jets. Why do BOTH? Shortening the runway eliminated the only shred of a basis for complaint coming from anyone in the area, so there was no excuse for any further selling-out. To this day we don't know exactly what kind of political quid pro quos took place in this shameful episode. Then there was the ridiculous ruling that it was illegal for people to receive pilot training in their own airplanes, contradicting decades of prior practice and rule interpretation. That had to be undone by Congress: https://www.flyingmag.com/flight-instruction-faa/ https://www.flyingmag.com/flight-instruction-faa/ And recently there was a ruling that essentially made go-arounds (aborted landings) illegal (if the testimony here is true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpFDRoStcd4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpFDRoStcd4 ). I had faith the FAA once. No more.

NonNefarious 4y ago
- nameless912 4y ago
  The fact that basicmed contained absolutely no affordances for well-managed mental health conditions shows that basicmed was also a serious administrative failure, though.
  - NonNefarious 4y ago
    That does indeed sound like a failing.
jhugo 4y ago
> And recently there was a ruling that essentially made go-arounds (aborted landings) illegal (if the testimony here is true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpFDRoStcd4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpFDRoStcd4 ). Why not link to the actual ruling instead of some random YouTube video when making such a far-fetched claim?