5 ms·

I hope Portugal makes it onerously difficult for expats. The last thing that place needs is to be the new Malaga. Yes, I am biased as I'm ethnically Portuguese

by zeruch 4y ago

I hope Portugal makes it onerously difficult for expats. The last thing that place needs is to be the new Malaga. Yes, I am biased as I'm ethnically Portuguese, travel there often enough, and love "my ancestral homeland" and already see signs of boorish US/UK expats being full-on entitled jackwagons.

Thin_icE 4y ago
You might be biased, but you're spot on. This can't go on much longer.
kspacewalk2 4y ago
>Yes, I am biased as I'm ethnically Portuguese, travel there often enough Ah so you love the old "enjoy visiting the old country on the new country salary" bit. But what's good for you the occasional visiting ex-Portuguese may not be good for people who actually live there. Portugal is furiously marketing itself to expats (retirees, entrepreneurs, professionals) because their government understands the demographic situation it's in. Stagnant population for ~30 years, but now the natural change is becoming so bad that without immigrants and expats, the depopulation will make any kind of economic growth impossible. A country needs a tax base, and your occasional visits won't do much for that.
- adriancr 4y ago
  they could reduce level of corruption to find the money and reduce tax burden to keep people from leaving.
  - dangus 4y ago
    If tax burden was the driving reason for people leaving, wouldn’t NYC, LA, and San Francisco be empty by now? Yes, corruption is likely a cause of brain drain, I agree with you there, but I have to think that brain drain is a multifaceted issue. Some of these facets are out of the control of the locality entirely. Some examples: West Virginia can’t change the fact that there’s little demand for coal mining. The Midwest can’t change the fact that the manufacturing industry spread out beyond its borders. Vacation towns in Michigan can’t change the fact that cheap air travel now exists to take people to more desirable beach climates. New Orleans can’t change its physical location to be less prone to flooding. I don’t have enough familiarity with Portugal to say what’s going on, but any time I hear high taxes being blamed for widespread issues I get a faint whiff of oversimplified libertarian ideology.
    - zeruch 4y ago
      "I don’t have enough familiarity with Portugal to say what’s going on, but any time I hear high taxes being blamed for widespread issues I get a faint whiff of oversimplified libertarian ideology." Bingo
- zeruch 4y ago
  "Ah so you love the old "enjoy visiting the old country on the new country salary" bit" No, I enjoy visiting my family and a culture I have always been attached and a part of. But thanks for the patronizing bellendry, it was expected. I'm fine with as much immigration as .pt sees fit. I am not however, fine with what happened to southern Spain, where whole portions of coast turned into "Little Britain" including lambasting the locals for speaking their own language and preferring their own food. A local population (stagnant or otherwise) isn't there to just be a servile convenience for people just because they have means to self-exile there. As to the rest of your moribund commentary...'porra'.
dsizzle 4y ago
How do you feel about expats where ever it is you live now?
- zeruch 4y ago
  Given that they comparatively try to assimilate into the milieu, I find it delightful. I live in a melting pot (much like places like Lisbon) and its swell. I live in the US, in the same place I was born in. But I am the son of immigrants who chose to naturalize, become "native" while not losing sight of their history. It's not difficult to do, and it's a comparative benefit (variety is the spice...)
  - dsizzle 4y ago
    So you'd be fine with expats in Portugal if they learned Portuguese? (Doesn't say one way or the other if the person in the article learned the language.) Conversely, are you upset by immigrants in the US that don't speak English?
    - zeruch 4y ago
      I like how you are trying to find an angle here. My expectation for those wishing to live in Portugal are analogous to how I feel about those emigrating here to the US: don't just treat your new home like a blank slate to impose your will on. It's a relationship, treat it like a balanced one. Yes, I think language requirements matter (I hold that basic language proficiency for standard cases should require at least elementary English sufficient to participate as a citizen); I also advocate for all US citizens to be required to achieve substantive skills in a second language...note, my first language was not English, and I'm still functionally bi-lingual. The reason I don't mention this for Portugal is that they already do this, and most Portuguese born after the revolution, and certainly in urban areas, are bi-lingual or polyglot. And yes, I think unless you are on a work visa with a set end date, you should make at least a modicum of attempt to "fit in". That doesn't mean subsuming your own historical identity, but making a functional attempt to expand it since you were inspired enough to transfer yourself to a whole other context...adapt accordingly by pulling from and contributing to. I'm not upset by those that don't speak English in the US, but that is itself context specific. If you decide to move here at a comparatively young adult age, and do little to acclimate, then yes, I find that obnoxious. I've harangued those in the Portuguese diaspora in the US for that very same behavior; living in suburban enclaves lost in time (manay emigrated to the US during the Salazar regime).
lifeplusplus 4y ago
so when your family immigrated it was ok but when others immigrating it's not ok, do you see the hypocrisy that's all good?
- zeruch 4y ago
  You're either very much in need of re-reading what I wrote, or are intentionally, petulantly choosing to miss my point. Try again.

by zeruch 4y ago

Thin_icE 4y ago

You might be biased, but you're spot on. This can't go on much longer.

kspacewalk2 4y ago

>Yes, I am biased as I'm ethnically Portuguese, travel there often enough Ah so you love the old "enjoy visiting the old country on the new country salary" bit. But what's good for you the occasional visiting ex-Portuguese may not be good for people who actually live there. Portugal is furiously marketing itself to expats (retirees, entrepreneurs, professionals) because their government understands the demographic situation it's in. Stagnant population for ~30 years, but now the natural change is becoming so bad that without immigrants and expats, the depopulation will make any kind of economic growth impossible. A country needs a tax base, and your occasional visits won't do much for that.

adriancr 4y ago
they could reduce level of corruption to find the money and reduce tax burden to keep people from leaving.
- dangus 4y ago
  If tax burden was the driving reason for people leaving, wouldn’t NYC, LA, and San Francisco be empty by now? Yes, corruption is likely a cause of brain drain, I agree with you there, but I have to think that brain drain is a multifaceted issue. Some of these facets are out of the control of the locality entirely. Some examples: West Virginia can’t change the fact that there’s little demand for coal mining. The Midwest can’t change the fact that the manufacturing industry spread out beyond its borders. Vacation towns in Michigan can’t change the fact that cheap air travel now exists to take people to more desirable beach climates. New Orleans can’t change its physical location to be less prone to flooding. I don’t have enough familiarity with Portugal to say what’s going on, but any time I hear high taxes being blamed for widespread issues I get a faint whiff of oversimplified libertarian ideology.
  - zeruch 4y ago
    "I don’t have enough familiarity with Portugal to say what’s going on, but any time I hear high taxes being blamed for widespread issues I get a faint whiff of oversimplified libertarian ideology." Bingo
zeruch 4y ago
"Ah so you love the old "enjoy visiting the old country on the new country salary" bit" No, I enjoy visiting my family and a culture I have always been attached and a part of. But thanks for the patronizing bellendry, it was expected. I'm fine with as much immigration as .pt sees fit. I am not however, fine with what happened to southern Spain, where whole portions of coast turned into "Little Britain" including lambasting the locals for speaking their own language and preferring their own food. A local population (stagnant or otherwise) isn't there to just be a servile convenience for people just because they have means to self-exile there. As to the rest of your moribund commentary...'porra'.

dsizzle 4y ago

How do you feel about expats where ever it is you live now?

zeruch 4y ago
Given that they comparatively try to assimilate into the milieu, I find it delightful. I live in a melting pot (much like places like Lisbon) and its swell. I live in the US, in the same place I was born in. But I am the son of immigrants who chose to naturalize, become "native" while not losing sight of their history. It's not difficult to do, and it's a comparative benefit (variety is the spice...)
- dsizzle 4y ago
  So you'd be fine with expats in Portugal if they learned Portuguese? (Doesn't say one way or the other if the person in the article learned the language.) Conversely, are you upset by immigrants in the US that don't speak English?
  - zeruch 4y ago
    I like how you are trying to find an angle here. My expectation for those wishing to live in Portugal are analogous to how I feel about those emigrating here to the US: don't just treat your new home like a blank slate to impose your will on. It's a relationship, treat it like a balanced one. Yes, I think language requirements matter (I hold that basic language proficiency for standard cases should require at least elementary English sufficient to participate as a citizen); I also advocate for all US citizens to be required to achieve substantive skills in a second language...note, my first language was not English, and I'm still functionally bi-lingual. The reason I don't mention this for Portugal is that they already do this, and most Portuguese born after the revolution, and certainly in urban areas, are bi-lingual or polyglot. And yes, I think unless you are on a work visa with a set end date, you should make at least a modicum of attempt to "fit in". That doesn't mean subsuming your own historical identity, but making a functional attempt to expand it since you were inspired enough to transfer yourself to a whole other context...adapt accordingly by pulling from and contributing to. I'm not upset by those that don't speak English in the US, but that is itself context specific. If you decide to move here at a comparatively young adult age, and do little to acclimate, then yes, I find that obnoxious. I've harangued those in the Portuguese diaspora in the US for that very same behavior; living in suburban enclaves lost in time (manay emigrated to the US during the Salazar regime).

lifeplusplus 4y ago

so when your family immigrated it was ok but when others immigrating it's not ok, do you see the hypocrisy that's all good?

zeruch 4y ago
You're either very much in need of re-reading what I wrote, or are intentionally, petulantly choosing to miss my point. Try again.