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Oh for goodness sake you hang your hat on the self driving group while totally ignoring the entire other organization actually designing and producing the cars.

Oh for goodness sake you hang your hat on the self driving group while totally ignoring the entire other organization actually designing and producing the cars. Same dumb attitude I witnessed when I was deep within the skeptic community during 2016-2019(/r/RealTesla and the major players on Twitter). Tesla's engineering has proven themselves time and time again but the skeptic community has devolved into nothing but conspiracy theory nonsense with the explicit goal to bash everything that Tesla has done just because it is a MuskCo. They are not capable of objectively looking at the organization as a whole and all the amazing things going on over there but instead let their bias focus them on nothing but the failures. There is no reasoning with the skeptic community and as a result, major innovations will be missed and will instead creep up as surprises when they inevitably have longer term impacts on the automotive industry.

ModernMech 4y ago
You chide me for not considering the totality of Tesla engineering while focusing on the self-driving group, yet it seems you're doing exactly the opposite: hanging your hat on whichever engineers you respect while ignoring the negligent practices of the self driving group. So maybe we're talking past one another a little here, but at the same time I don't think the problems I point out could persist in a corporate culture where engineers were empowered. > focus them on nothing but the failures. To be clear, the failures I'm speaking of here are deaths due to Tesla's negligent engineering. Actually I take that back. The real failure here of Tesla's engineering is not the first decapitation but the second one. That's a process problem, and is indicative of rot in the entire corporation (starting at the top; Musk's ego is the whole reason Teslas self-driving group is kneecapped). You want to look at the corporation as a whole? Start with the fact that their product killed someone, and they didn't fix the failure mode which resulted in that death, which then resulted in a second death in the same way. And they still haven't fixed it, so it's only a matter of time until the next decapitation. What kind of sick organization lets this kind of problem persist? I'll tell you: one where it's more important to be right (we don't need no stinking LIDAR!) than safe (LIDAR are safer than what Tesla is using). That's an ego problem right there. Anyway, I see you didn't address any of my points except to say that there's no reasoning behind my words and my attitude is "dumb". So unless you want to respond to an actual point instead of just asserting without fact that Tesla is so amazing, so innovative, and so proven (I mean, yeah, they are certainly proving themselves, but maybe they are building the wrong reputation...), then I think we're done here.

ModernMech 4y ago

You chide me for not considering the totality of Tesla engineering while focusing on the self-driving group, yet it seems you're doing exactly the opposite: hanging your hat on whichever engineers you respect while ignoring the negligent practices of the self driving group. So maybe we're talking past one another a little here, but at the same time I don't think the problems I point out could persist in a corporate culture where engineers were empowered. > focus them on nothing but the failures. To be clear, the failures I'm speaking of here are deaths due to Tesla's negligent engineering. Actually I take that back. The real failure here of Tesla's engineering is not the first decapitation but the second one. That's a process problem, and is indicative of rot in the entire corporation (starting at the top; Musk's ego is the whole reason Teslas self-driving group is kneecapped). You want to look at the corporation as a whole? Start with the fact that their product killed someone, and they didn't fix the failure mode which resulted in that death, which then resulted in a second death in the same way. And they still haven't fixed it, so it's only a matter of time until the next decapitation. What kind of sick organization lets this kind of problem persist? I'll tell you: one where it's more important to be right (we don't need no stinking LIDAR!) than safe (LIDAR are safer than what Tesla is using). That's an ego problem right there. Anyway, I see you didn't address any of my points except to say that there's no reasoning behind my words and my attitude is "dumb". So unless you want to respond to an actual point instead of just asserting without fact that Tesla is so amazing, so innovative, and so proven (I mean, yeah, they are certainly proving themselves, but maybe they are building the wrong reputation...), then I think we're done here.