5 ms·

Just to play devils advocate: will so-called “conservative” policies improve the situation?

smsm42 4y ago
Some of them - like prosecuting crime and dealing with rampant homelessness - would. Some - like restricting hard liquor sales - probably wouldn't. The key is not to choose correct tribe, the key is to choose correct policy. SF - and CA - government has been consistently terrible at that for years.
adastra22 4y ago
False dichotomy. There’s a whole universe of policy options. But to answer your question as posed, conservative policies will probably get us out of the mess we’re in, and then we can have the luxury to consider what smarter long-term progressive policies could be enacted. Example: there is now an organized crime theft ring coordinating smash-and-grab thefts from storefronts in San Francisco because the DA’s so-called progressive policy of excessive leniency for misdemeanor theft. To the point where stores like CVS are abandoning the city. A “conservative” policy of harsh law enforcement is probably needed to reverse this trend. (That’s not the same as saying we should have harsh punishment for misdemeanors as a general rule forever though.)
- DrewRWx 4y ago
  CVS is abandoning a lot of cities: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/18/cvs-store-closures-to-shut-about-300-stores-a-year-over-next-three-years.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/18/cvs-store-closures-to-shut-a... .
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
linksnapzz 4y ago
Singapore and Tokyo are large, densely-populated cities that don't have the public-order problems that California cities do. I can't say if their policies are "conservative" or not based on the US understanding of the word, but they do seem to work...
- smsm42 4y ago
  California cities very recently didn't have the public-order problems that California cities do. It's a pretty recent phenomenon, and it's hard not to attribute it to the novel ideas of legalizing theft and "reforming" criminals by just letting them go.
- DrewRWx 4y ago
  In the case of the former, caning is a widely used form of corporal punishment. That is extremely conservative and not something we should re-create in the US.
  - cameldrv 4y ago
    I don't think that we should institute caning, but I do think that new forms of punishment are needed. Jail and prison are terrible forms of punishment. Someone who goes to prison is going to lose their job, maybe lose their house and possessions, and be away from their family. And that's all to spend time hanging out with convicted criminals all day and learn nothing of value. Compared with this, caning actually starts to look not so bad. It sends a clear message "don't do that again" without destroying someone's life. Now, caning also can cause serious damage to your body, so I don't think it's an acceptable punishment, but it would be good to have a better method of punishment that sent a clear message but didn't wreck someone's life and leave them with little alternative but to resort to crime again.
  - linksnapzz 4y ago
    I draw the line, myself, at permanently maiming people for petty crime, so the Saudi method of handling thieves is off the table. Birching or caning was used successfully in anglophone countries for years. Alternatively, something distasteful and uncomfortable, like being dressed in an orange jumpsuit, shackled to other ne'r-do-wells, and forcd to police the side of a highway for litter for 12 hours a day for a month would also work, if it could be applied with dispatch.
  - linksnapzz 4y ago
    ...furthermore, consider this: https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/victim-of-hit-and-run-in-venice-outraged-over-juvenile-suspects-sentence/ https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/victim-of-hit-and-ru... Think hard on the developmental stage of the person behind the wheel of the car. Which do you think will have a more lasting effect on him; camp...or a whipping? Do you think the woman in the article is wrong for being outraged at the original sentence?

Some of them - like prosecuting crime and dealing with rampant homelessness - would. Some - like restricting hard liquor sales - probably wouldn't. The key is not to choose correct tribe, the key is to choose correct policy. SF - and CA - government has been consistently terrible at that for years.

adastra22 4y ago

False dichotomy. There’s a whole universe of policy options. But to answer your question as posed, conservative policies will probably get us out of the mess we’re in, and then we can have the luxury to consider what smarter long-term progressive policies could be enacted. Example: there is now an organized crime theft ring coordinating smash-and-grab thefts from storefronts in San Francisco because the DA’s so-called progressive policy of excessive leniency for misdemeanor theft. To the point where stores like CVS are abandoning the city. A “conservative” policy of harsh law enforcement is probably needed to reverse this trend. (That’s not the same as saying we should have harsh punishment for misdemeanors as a general rule forever though.)

DrewRWx 4y ago
CVS is abandoning a lot of cities: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/18/cvs-store-closures-to-shut-about-300-stores-a-year-over-next-three-years.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/18/cvs-store-closures-to-shut-a... .
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

linksnapzz 4y ago

Singapore and Tokyo are large, densely-populated cities that don't have the public-order problems that California cities do. I can't say if their policies are "conservative" or not based on the US understanding of the word, but they do seem to work...

smsm42 4y ago
California cities very recently didn't have the public-order problems that California cities do. It's a pretty recent phenomenon, and it's hard not to attribute it to the novel ideas of legalizing theft and "reforming" criminals by just letting them go.
DrewRWx 4y ago
In the case of the former, caning is a widely used form of corporal punishment. That is extremely conservative and not something we should re-create in the US.
- cameldrv 4y ago
  I don't think that we should institute caning, but I do think that new forms of punishment are needed. Jail and prison are terrible forms of punishment. Someone who goes to prison is going to lose their job, maybe lose their house and possessions, and be away from their family. And that's all to spend time hanging out with convicted criminals all day and learn nothing of value. Compared with this, caning actually starts to look not so bad. It sends a clear message "don't do that again" without destroying someone's life. Now, caning also can cause serious damage to your body, so I don't think it's an acceptable punishment, but it would be good to have a better method of punishment that sent a clear message but didn't wreck someone's life and leave them with little alternative but to resort to crime again.
- linksnapzz 4y ago
  I draw the line, myself, at permanently maiming people for petty crime, so the Saudi method of handling thieves is off the table. Birching or caning was used successfully in anglophone countries for years. Alternatively, something distasteful and uncomfortable, like being dressed in an orange jumpsuit, shackled to other ne'r-do-wells, and forcd to police the side of a highway for litter for 12 hours a day for a month would also work, if it could be applied with dispatch.
- linksnapzz 4y ago
  ...furthermore, consider this: https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/victim-of-hit-and-run-in-venice-outraged-over-juvenile-suspects-sentence/ https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/victim-of-hit-and-ru... Think hard on the developmental stage of the person behind the wheel of the car. Which do you think will have a more lasting effect on him; camp...or a whipping? Do you think the woman in the article is wrong for being outraged at the original sentence?