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Ah yes, the US interest of not funding Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Heaven forbid any Europeans have any interest themselves in not helping a warmonger. Obvio

Ah yes, the US interest of not funding Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Heaven forbid any Europeans have any interest themselves in not helping a warmonger. Obviously they can only do this at the behesr of Uncle Sam.

PKop 4y ago
It is only my claim that their interests are not completely aligned. US is much more energy independent and gepolitically secure across the ocean from whatever happens on the "world-island" [0]. Whereas Europe might directly suffer from instability and chaos, as well as loss of Russian energy supplies, the US would not and in relative terms becomes stronger if Europe is severed from Russian energy, and the continent is in conflict and chaos. Europe having tight relations with Russia, economically especially energy-wise, is greatly beneficial to Europe and detrimental to US hegemony. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_Hist...
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  > Europe having tight relations with Russia, economically especially energy-wise, is greatly beneficial to Europe You're once again excluding any calculations of Russia using the money to run around overthrowing democracies. "It's greatly beneficial if you ignore all the mass murder." The whole reason why they're now cancelling NS2 is because of this. Germany likes cheap energy, sure, but they're less than enthused about the money paying for that cheap energy going into executing and raping civilians in Ukraine.
  - alaricus 4y ago
    The world doesn't revolve around "America vs Russia". There are lots of other things going on. And if you are looking for a mass murderer, is there a bigger mass murderer than USA after 20 years of mass murder in the Middle East?
    - systemvoltage 4y ago
      That would be the Middle East itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State To fight ISIS, it is mostly a joint effort of US + NATO + Allies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Joint_Task_Force_%E2%80%93_Operation_Inherent_Resolve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Joint_Task_Force_%E2%.... > The United States accounts for the vast majority of airstrikes (75–80%), with the remainder conducted by Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Jordan, Belgium, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, and the United Kingdom.
      - alaricus 4y ago
        This made me laugh. Isis was a direct consequence of American invasion of Iraq. You can't do what America did in Fallujah and not expect some kind of blowback.
        systemvoltage 4y ago
        > Since at latest 2004, a significant goal of the group has been the foundation of a Sunni Islamic state. Specifically, ISIL has sought to establish itself as a caliphate, an Islamic state led by a group of religious authorities under a supreme leader – the caliph – who is believed to be the successor to Prophet Muhammad. Furthermore, it is worth studying the Arab Spring and what the underlying causes were: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring#Causes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring#Causes
        alaricus 4y ago
        Doesn't change the fact that America spent the last 20 years on a mass-murder spree in the Middle East.
        systemvoltage 4y ago
        If you want to call wars mass murders, that’s your call. I support complete defeat of ISIS/ISIL to the last member. Seems like you have a rhetorical axe to grind, mass murders sounds like a dog whistle to the people with anti-US sentiments. Not an objective argument.
alaricus 4y ago

PKop 4y ago

It is only my claim that their interests are not completely aligned. US is much more energy independent and gepolitically secure across the ocean from whatever happens on the "world-island" [0]. Whereas Europe might directly suffer from instability and chaos, as well as loss of Russian energy supplies, the US would not and in relative terms becomes stronger if Europe is severed from Russian energy, and the continent is in conflict and chaos. Europe having tight relations with Russia, economically especially energy-wise, is greatly beneficial to Europe and detrimental to US hegemony. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_Hist...

TulliusCicero 4y ago
> Europe having tight relations with Russia, economically especially energy-wise, is greatly beneficial to Europe You're once again excluding any calculations of Russia using the money to run around overthrowing democracies. "It's greatly beneficial if you ignore all the mass murder." The whole reason why they're now cancelling NS2 is because of this. Germany likes cheap energy, sure, but they're less than enthused about the money paying for that cheap energy going into executing and raping civilians in Ukraine.
- alaricus 4y ago
  The world doesn't revolve around "America vs Russia". There are lots of other things going on. And if you are looking for a mass murderer, is there a bigger mass murderer than USA after 20 years of mass murder in the Middle East?
  - systemvoltage 4y ago
    That would be the Middle East itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State To fight ISIS, it is mostly a joint effort of US + NATO + Allies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Joint_Task_Force_%E2%80%93_Operation_Inherent_Resolve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Joint_Task_Force_%E2%.... > The United States accounts for the vast majority of airstrikes (75–80%), with the remainder conducted by Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Jordan, Belgium, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, and the United Kingdom.
    - alaricus 4y ago
      This made me laugh. Isis was a direct consequence of American invasion of Iraq. You can't do what America did in Fallujah and not expect some kind of blowback.
      - systemvoltage 4y ago
        > Since at latest 2004, a significant goal of the group has been the foundation of a Sunni Islamic state. Specifically, ISIL has sought to establish itself as a caliphate, an Islamic state led by a group of religious authorities under a supreme leader – the caliph – who is believed to be the successor to Prophet Muhammad. Furthermore, it is worth studying the Arab Spring and what the underlying causes were: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring#Causes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring#Causes
        alaricus 4y ago
        Doesn't change the fact that America spent the last 20 years on a mass-murder spree in the Middle East.
        systemvoltage 4y ago
        If you want to call wars mass murders, that’s your call. I support complete defeat of ISIS/ISIL to the last member. Seems like you have a rhetorical axe to grind, mass murders sounds like a dog whistle to the people with anti-US sentiments. Not an objective argument.

alaricus 4y ago