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Why Has Germany Been So Slow to Deliver Weapons?

4 points by tomohawk 4y ago

DocTomoe 4y ago
"Half of Germans think Germany should do more." I'm one of the other half. Ukraine is a country that has been failing to meet European standards for corruption for decades, has had a history of gas disappearing in their territory (the gas transit disputes were a staple for European political entertainment every year since at least 1995), got billions of EU monies for improving their situation just to show no tangible results, has been price-gouging other European partners, and now sent someone to be their ambassador to Berlin who would be kicked out of any respectable pub (and most that aren't) for being completely undiplomatic. In short: The Ukraine was not a reliable partner in the past. Russia, on the other hand, while being massively corrupt always delivered what they promised. I have deep compassion for individual Ukrainians during this war. But I think it's probably best for Germany and Europe to not get involved too deeply. Scholz, for all his failures, does the right thing here.
- smt88 4y ago
  > Ukraine was not a reliable partner in the past. What does that any of this have to do with innocent civilians, including children, who are being slaughtered by Russia? European intervention is predicated on the following concepts, none of which are addressed by your comment: - This is an unprovoked invasion of a country that unilaterally disarmed under the promise that Russia wouldn't invade them. - Russia is testing NATO's tolerance for invasion and conquest, which is also something China will be closely watching as they consider annexation of Taiwan and likely many other countries. - Many civilians who have nothing to do with global politics are being killed, again for absolutely no reason. Russia's entire pretext for this invasion was the warming relationship between Ukraine and NATO. > Russia, on the other hand, while being massively corrupt always delivered what they promised. Russia has been waging a cyber war on NATO countries, especially the US, for years. They are openly hostile to NATO countries. They will "deliver what they promised" until it doesn't suit them anymore. If they are able to rebuild an empire, they may not need Germany for their economic engine as badly as they do now. > I have deep compassion for individual Ukrainians during this war. None of the rest of your comment suggests this at all. If you have compassion for them and so do most European voters, why shouldn't Europe act on that compassion?
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    It has nothing to do with innocent Ukrainians - but if we start to deliver heavy weaponry to any people who got innocently attacked and slaughtered by a larger aggressor, we would be at war with the United States within the week. We cannot claim to act out of a moral imperative for Ukraine and against Russia if we do not supply the same level of support for, say, the Kurds to defend against Turkey. This is why I have compassion with Ukrainians, but think we need to stay out of this as much as possible. If you don't treat similar situations similarly, the only option on how to act is in your own interest. > - This is an unprovoked invasion of a country that unilaterally disarmed under the promise that Russia wouldn't invade them. Even if that was in any way relevant to the current situation: How long do you think such a promise should be good for, and should it still be good for countries that have had a less than stellar track record when it came to international relations afterwards? > - Russia is testing NATO's tolerance for invasion and conquest, which is also something China will be closely watching as they consider annexation of Taiwan and likely many other countries. Note how both Russia and China do not need to test tolerances, as both of them are capable nuclear powers with primary and secondary strike capabilities. As Biden is unlikely to sacrifice New York for Kiev, or San Francisco for Taipeh, this is a moot point. > - Many civilians who have nothing to do with global politics are being killed, again for absolutely no reason. Russia's entire pretext for this invasion was the warming relationship between Ukraine and NATO. A warming relationship that was started by a clear US intelligence operation with Euromaidan and likely still is heavily supported by money right out of Langley. Maybe Europeans, the designated battlefield in an US/Russia war, should not fan that fire any more. > Russia has been waging a cyber war on NATO countries, especially the US, for years. And still, whenever we look at proof for this, we see explanations like 'the code has some cyrillic script in it', which is easily fakeable. I've yet to see definite proof of successful Russian hacking that goes beyond 'script-kiddie' levels. On the other hand, we do know of not one, but several US units that openly plan and execute hacking attacks (Stuxnet, anyone?) > They are openly hostile to NATO countries. They were friendly enough delivering gas while we were still paying them. > None of the rest of your comment suggests this at all. If you have compassion for them and so do most European voters, why shouldn't Europe act on that compassion? Compassion also can mean not speaking in support of a war that eventually will be lost, heavy weapons or not, but will still kill hundreds each day. So why do European countries still send weapons? Because that's the perfect opportunity to get rid of the old trash and buy some shiny new toys (and the US hopes they're going to buy American).
- eveningcoffee 4y ago
  So lets get it straight. Because Russia delivers goods to Germany, it is okey to support genocide it commits against Ukraine? This is what you want to say? You can't be serious, or you think what you say is demonstration of decent human being who supports European values? There is a major difference between Russia and Ukraine - willingness of Ukrainians to move toward European values while Russia is moving in other direction in light speed. Worse, Putin Russia is financing political instability in Europe by directly funding both far right and far left parties. But not only founding but giving them propaganda support through social media manipulations. There is another, strategical aspect that shows that we should really, really support Ukraine - its natural resources. If these fall into hands of Putin, he has even more control over Europe. With Ukraine Europe can become a democratic economical power house and leave Fascist Russia into isolation and this is what Putin fears the most and this is why Ukraine must win.
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    > Because Russia delivers goods to Germany, it is okey to support genocide it commits against Ukraine? "Genocide" is too often being used as a propaganda shell these days. What we see is a - very brutal - war. In Germany, we know what actual genocide looks like. > supports European values That's another word shell that, once you start digging, you realise means nothing. There is no such thing as "European values". There only are European interests. > willingness of Ukrainians to move toward European values while Russia is moving in other direction in light speed. Or, to express this in another way: One is willing to relinquish some level of control for decades of free EU monies, mostly originating from the tax coffers of Germany and France, while the other one has decided not to do so. > Worse, Putin Russia is financing political instability in Europe by directly funding both far right and far left parties. But not only founding but giving them propaganda support through social media manipulations. Welcome to politics. Do you really think for a second that "Radio Free Europe" was a fair and balanced station? That "Deutsche Welle" is? That all those "cultural institutes" we have all over the world just give language courses and local cuisine champagner parties? When I say "Nawalni" (a guy who by western standards should be considered a far-right at least) or "Chodorkovskij" (an even more colourful character), does it ring a bell? We cannot reasonably accuse Russia of doing something we ourselves are engaged in, and have been for decades. > There is another, strategical aspect that shows that we should really, really support Ukraine - its natural resources. Putin was happily enough selling us natural resources in the past. > With Ukraine Europe can become a democratic economical power house Even though they had all the options and support to become a democratic economical power house in the last thirty hears, and consistently failed to do so. Ukraine is a money grave with constant potential conflict. You and me disagree on if we need another Romania, or another Hungary, or another Poland.

4 points by tomohawk 4y ago

"Half of Germans think Germany should do more." I'm one of the other half. Ukraine is a country that has been failing to meet European standards for corruption for decades, has had a history of gas disappearing in their territory (the gas transit disputes were a staple for European political entertainment every year since at least 1995), got billions of EU monies for improving their situation just to show no tangible results, has been price-gouging other European partners, and now sent someone to be their ambassador to Berlin who would be kicked out of any respectable pub (and most that aren't) for being completely undiplomatic. In short: The Ukraine was not a reliable partner in the past. Russia, on the other hand, while being massively corrupt always delivered what they promised. I have deep compassion for individual Ukrainians during this war. But I think it's probably best for Germany and Europe to not get involved too deeply. Scholz, for all his failures, does the right thing here.

smt88 4y ago
> Ukraine was not a reliable partner in the past. What does that any of this have to do with innocent civilians, including children, who are being slaughtered by Russia? European intervention is predicated on the following concepts, none of which are addressed by your comment: - This is an unprovoked invasion of a country that unilaterally disarmed under the promise that Russia wouldn't invade them. - Russia is testing NATO's tolerance for invasion and conquest, which is also something China will be closely watching as they consider annexation of Taiwan and likely many other countries. - Many civilians who have nothing to do with global politics are being killed, again for absolutely no reason. Russia's entire pretext for this invasion was the warming relationship between Ukraine and NATO. > Russia, on the other hand, while being massively corrupt always delivered what they promised. Russia has been waging a cyber war on NATO countries, especially the US, for years. They are openly hostile to NATO countries. They will "deliver what they promised" until it doesn't suit them anymore. If they are able to rebuild an empire, they may not need Germany for their economic engine as badly as they do now. > I have deep compassion for individual Ukrainians during this war. None of the rest of your comment suggests this at all. If you have compassion for them and so do most European voters, why shouldn't Europe act on that compassion?
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  It has nothing to do with innocent Ukrainians - but if we start to deliver heavy weaponry to any people who got innocently attacked and slaughtered by a larger aggressor, we would be at war with the United States within the week. We cannot claim to act out of a moral imperative for Ukraine and against Russia if we do not supply the same level of support for, say, the Kurds to defend against Turkey. This is why I have compassion with Ukrainians, but think we need to stay out of this as much as possible. If you don't treat similar situations similarly, the only option on how to act is in your own interest. > - This is an unprovoked invasion of a country that unilaterally disarmed under the promise that Russia wouldn't invade them. Even if that was in any way relevant to the current situation: How long do you think such a promise should be good for, and should it still be good for countries that have had a less than stellar track record when it came to international relations afterwards? > - Russia is testing NATO's tolerance for invasion and conquest, which is also something China will be closely watching as they consider annexation of Taiwan and likely many other countries. Note how both Russia and China do not need to test tolerances, as both of them are capable nuclear powers with primary and secondary strike capabilities. As Biden is unlikely to sacrifice New York for Kiev, or San Francisco for Taipeh, this is a moot point. > - Many civilians who have nothing to do with global politics are being killed, again for absolutely no reason. Russia's entire pretext for this invasion was the warming relationship between Ukraine and NATO. A warming relationship that was started by a clear US intelligence operation with Euromaidan and likely still is heavily supported by money right out of Langley. Maybe Europeans, the designated battlefield in an US/Russia war, should not fan that fire any more. > Russia has been waging a cyber war on NATO countries, especially the US, for years. And still, whenever we look at proof for this, we see explanations like 'the code has some cyrillic script in it', which is easily fakeable. I've yet to see definite proof of successful Russian hacking that goes beyond 'script-kiddie' levels. On the other hand, we do know of not one, but several US units that openly plan and execute hacking attacks (Stuxnet, anyone?) > They are openly hostile to NATO countries. They were friendly enough delivering gas while we were still paying them. > None of the rest of your comment suggests this at all. If you have compassion for them and so do most European voters, why shouldn't Europe act on that compassion? Compassion also can mean not speaking in support of a war that eventually will be lost, heavy weapons or not, but will still kill hundreds each day. So why do European countries still send weapons? Because that's the perfect opportunity to get rid of the old trash and buy some shiny new toys (and the US hopes they're going to buy American).
eveningcoffee 4y ago
So lets get it straight. Because Russia delivers goods to Germany, it is okey to support genocide it commits against Ukraine? This is what you want to say? You can't be serious, or you think what you say is demonstration of decent human being who supports European values? There is a major difference between Russia and Ukraine - willingness of Ukrainians to move toward European values while Russia is moving in other direction in light speed. Worse, Putin Russia is financing political instability in Europe by directly funding both far right and far left parties. But not only founding but giving them propaganda support through social media manipulations. There is another, strategical aspect that shows that we should really, really support Ukraine - its natural resources. If these fall into hands of Putin, he has even more control over Europe. With Ukraine Europe can become a democratic economical power house and leave Fascist Russia into isolation and this is what Putin fears the most and this is why Ukraine must win.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  > Because Russia delivers goods to Germany, it is okey to support genocide it commits against Ukraine? "Genocide" is too often being used as a propaganda shell these days. What we see is a - very brutal - war. In Germany, we know what actual genocide looks like. > supports European values That's another word shell that, once you start digging, you realise means nothing. There is no such thing as "European values". There only are European interests. > willingness of Ukrainians to move toward European values while Russia is moving in other direction in light speed. Or, to express this in another way: One is willing to relinquish some level of control for decades of free EU monies, mostly originating from the tax coffers of Germany and France, while the other one has decided not to do so. > Worse, Putin Russia is financing political instability in Europe by directly funding both far right and far left parties. But not only founding but giving them propaganda support through social media manipulations. Welcome to politics. Do you really think for a second that "Radio Free Europe" was a fair and balanced station? That "Deutsche Welle" is? That all those "cultural institutes" we have all over the world just give language courses and local cuisine champagner parties? When I say "Nawalni" (a guy who by western standards should be considered a far-right at least) or "Chodorkovskij" (an even more colourful character), does it ring a bell? We cannot reasonably accuse Russia of doing something we ourselves are engaged in, and have been for decades. > There is another, strategical aspect that shows that we should really, really support Ukraine - its natural resources. Putin was happily enough selling us natural resources in the past. > With Ukraine Europe can become a democratic economical power house Even though they had all the options and support to become a democratic economical power house in the last thirty hears, and consistently failed to do so. Ukraine is a money grave with constant potential conflict. You and me disagree on if we need another Romania, or another Hungary, or another Poland.