3 ms·

This is a really neat technology, but I don't understand it's use case. I've worked in HealthTech and currently in the compliance space. I'm skeptical of Mongo'

This is a really neat technology, but I don't understand it's use case. I've worked in HealthTech and currently in the compliance space. I'm skeptical of Mongo's claims (and their familiarity with compliance laws). Kind of feels like a solution in search of a problem. "In use" implies that you have a need to process that data. It doesn't matter if the end client is submitting queries in plain text (protected in transit) or this fancy encryption, the client (or server) still needs to be authorized to query that data. Translating from plain-text to encryption does not add additional protections from a compliance perspective.

redwood 4y ago
I see this as more about fundamental trust.. confidentiality from the service providers, not compliance
xhkkffbf 4y ago
In one of the books about the general idea, _Translucent Databases_, the idea is to save the costs of securing the raw data. Someone might break into the database server (or listen on the wire) and find only encrypted values. This can make many different architectural use cases easier to deliver. In the most extreme cases, the unencrypted values never leave the client. The database can concentrate on delivering storage and fast query answers without paying much attention to issues of security. Clients don't need to trust the database because they control the encryption.
giaour 4y ago
> It doesn't matter if the end client is submitting queries in plain text (protected in transit) or this fancy encryption It's not just the query that is encrypted in this case, but the data being queried. From MongoDB's description, the server never receives or stores plaintext data, and the query results can only be decrypted by a client who has the same key that was used to encrypt the data in the first place. From a compliance perspective, that's amazing if it works. It means the server is never storing or processing anything but ciphertext.
- gkop 4y ago
  Yes, and in the context of Mongo-as-a-Service, it's amazing both to the client and also the service provider (less liability).
snorkel 4y ago
This seems more applicable for the SaaS hosting model where the database service is managed by a 3rd party. So the use case is "I trust your SaaS service is compliant with my legal obligations to protect my customer data, but it'd be easier for everyone involved if your database service also has no way of seeing sensitive data fields. That would make it easier for me to pass my compliance audits, otherwise I need to audit you." So the data is encrypted client-side before it's sent over to the database service, and the database service is not able to decrypt it, but can still can include the encrypted value in a query.
- SkyPuncher 4y ago
  The problem is that situation doesn't really exist. At an organizational level, it's extremely hard to control what information get put into a SaaS. There are far too many ways in which data can be de-anonymized or inferred against (e.g. a field existing can have privacy implications). It's far safer to use a SaaS provider that meets general control requirements than to try to shoe-horn encrypted data into them.
  - mjr00 4y ago
    Not sure about any specific use cases for this Mongo feature, but security requirements are often just checkboxes without much thought put behind them, or not valid in certain contexts, like SaaS/cloud. Classic example is on-prem enterprises requiring data encryption at rest when moving to a cloud vendor. I can explain to a client that encrypting an S3 bucket with an AWS-managed key doesn't really prevent anything beyond someone physically stealing a hard drive from the AWS data center, and that the cloud provider can still see all of their data because they control the encryption key... or I can just click the "encrypt data" flag on the S3 bucket, make their security and compliance officer happy, and be done with it. So, you're totally right, but this might be a case they needed to satisfy where an enterprise security team or regulatory agency said that they couldn't put X data field in the cloud unless it was encrypted, but X data field was really important to the application team.
    - bradstewart 4y ago
015a 4y ago
To be fair: the Compliance Regime didn't invent any of the technologies they create frameworks around, and if we followed every compliance framework's recommendations to a T, the systems produced would by-and-large be insecure. They paint with an extremely large brush; and its a toss-up whether the auditor has even been involved in anything technology-related beyond auditing for, well, decades. There's good ones and bad ones, but the integrity of many audit processes relies to a significant degree on the goodwill of the SMEs of the systems and processes being audited. Just as a dumb example; an auditor says passwords need to be hashed with bcrypt. They find a code sample that says "store(bcrypt(password))". Awesome; complied to a T. But true security goes beyond that: are we using a library for bcrypt, or an internal implementation? Is the internal implementation well-implemented? Is the library free of CVEs (maybe they check that)? Did we trace that call to ensure the data generated is what is inserted to the db, or was it intercepted by some middleware? Did we name that function 'bcrypt' but its actually just MD5? My point is really not to assert that auditing is pointless, but rather its fundamentally limited in what kind of attestations it can make. One great example I can pull from a few recent audits I've been through: serverless tech like Fargate. This oftentimes blows auditors away (or, rather, it used to; nowadays they've seen it so often that they just know). It checks so many boxes. They'll present multi-page forms about data center colos and operating system security and operator SSH access and we'll say "We use Fargate". "Oh nice, ok we can check all of these and carve out with AWS's attestation for (ComplianceFrameworkX)". It saves hours, days, of time. That's, I think, where homomorphic encryption can go. That isn't what this is, but it's a step toward that. It's not about meeting today's compliance frameworks; it's about evolving the framework. And, in the interim, as advanced R&D teams meet these auditors, they'll educate-up how, yeah, you've got a lot of questions here, but its not that we do or don't meet them: its that they're fundamentally the wrong questions to ask; but we understand the spirit, here's how we meet the spirit, and here's how we're actually better than if we had just checked Yes on all of them. Third example: years ago, our team was the first time our auditor had ever seen LetsEncrypt and k8s certificate-manager (then it was called kube-lego). He wanted an attestation that TLS certificates were current and not near-expiration. We countered: they can't be near-expiration, because we have automated systems which renew them. He'd never seen anything like it; he was used to expensive certificates and operations runbooks for renewal; and we nerded out for ten minutes showing it all off. Instead of documenting a runbook for renewing certificates, he documented our runbook for maintaining this automated service and ensuring uptime. Win-win. Its a slow process, and its made even slower because there are tons of people in the industry who treat the frameworks as gospel. But, ultimately; we control the technology, not them. We decide what is secure; they just attest to it and double-check.
sparc24 4y ago

redwood 4y ago

I see this as more about fundamental trust.. confidentiality from the service providers, not compliance

xhkkffbf 4y ago

In one of the books about the general idea, _Translucent Databases_, the idea is to save the costs of securing the raw data. Someone might break into the database server (or listen on the wire) and find only encrypted values. This can make many different architectural use cases easier to deliver. In the most extreme cases, the unencrypted values never leave the client. The database can concentrate on delivering storage and fast query answers without paying much attention to issues of security. Clients don't need to trust the database because they control the encryption.

giaour 4y ago

> It doesn't matter if the end client is submitting queries in plain text (protected in transit) or this fancy encryption It's not just the query that is encrypted in this case, but the data being queried. From MongoDB's description, the server never receives or stores plaintext data, and the query results can only be decrypted by a client who has the same key that was used to encrypt the data in the first place. From a compliance perspective, that's amazing if it works. It means the server is never storing or processing anything but ciphertext.

gkop 4y ago
Yes, and in the context of Mongo-as-a-Service, it's amazing both to the client and also the service provider (less liability).

snorkel 4y ago

This seems more applicable for the SaaS hosting model where the database service is managed by a 3rd party. So the use case is "I trust your SaaS service is compliant with my legal obligations to protect my customer data, but it'd be easier for everyone involved if your database service also has no way of seeing sensitive data fields. That would make it easier for me to pass my compliance audits, otherwise I need to audit you." So the data is encrypted client-side before it's sent over to the database service, and the database service is not able to decrypt it, but can still can include the encrypted value in a query.

SkyPuncher 4y ago
The problem is that situation doesn't really exist. At an organizational level, it's extremely hard to control what information get put into a SaaS. There are far too many ways in which data can be de-anonymized or inferred against (e.g. a field existing can have privacy implications). It's far safer to use a SaaS provider that meets general control requirements than to try to shoe-horn encrypted data into them.
- mjr00 4y ago
  Not sure about any specific use cases for this Mongo feature, but security requirements are often just checkboxes without much thought put behind them, or not valid in certain contexts, like SaaS/cloud. Classic example is on-prem enterprises requiring data encryption at rest when moving to a cloud vendor. I can explain to a client that encrypting an S3 bucket with an AWS-managed key doesn't really prevent anything beyond someone physically stealing a hard drive from the AWS data center, and that the cloud provider can still see all of their data because they control the encryption key... or I can just click the "encrypt data" flag on the S3 bucket, make their security and compliance officer happy, and be done with it. So, you're totally right, but this might be a case they needed to satisfy where an enterprise security team or regulatory agency said that they couldn't put X data field in the cloud unless it was encrypted, but X data field was really important to the application team.
  - bradstewart 4y ago

015a 4y ago

To be fair: the Compliance Regime didn't invent any of the technologies they create frameworks around, and if we followed every compliance framework's recommendations to a T, the systems produced would by-and-large be insecure. They paint with an extremely large brush; and its a toss-up whether the auditor has even been involved in anything technology-related beyond auditing for, well, decades. There's good ones and bad ones, but the integrity of many audit processes relies to a significant degree on the goodwill of the SMEs of the systems and processes being audited. Just as a dumb example; an auditor says passwords need to be hashed with bcrypt. They find a code sample that says "store(bcrypt(password))". Awesome; complied to a T. But true security goes beyond that: are we using a library for bcrypt, or an internal implementation? Is the internal implementation well-implemented? Is the library free of CVEs (maybe they check that)? Did we trace that call to ensure the data generated is what is inserted to the db, or was it intercepted by some middleware? Did we name that function 'bcrypt' but its actually just MD5? My point is really not to assert that auditing is pointless, but rather its fundamentally limited in what kind of attestations it can make. One great example I can pull from a few recent audits I've been through: serverless tech like Fargate. This oftentimes blows auditors away (or, rather, it used to; nowadays they've seen it so often that they just know). It checks so many boxes. They'll present multi-page forms about data center colos and operating system security and operator SSH access and we'll say "We use Fargate". "Oh nice, ok we can check all of these and carve out with AWS's attestation for (ComplianceFrameworkX)". It saves hours, days, of time. That's, I think, where homomorphic encryption can go. That isn't what this is, but it's a step toward that. It's not about meeting today's compliance frameworks; it's about evolving the framework. And, in the interim, as advanced R&D teams meet these auditors, they'll educate-up how, yeah, you've got a lot of questions here, but its not that we do or don't meet them: its that they're fundamentally the wrong questions to ask; but we understand the spirit, here's how we meet the spirit, and here's how we're actually better than if we had just checked Yes on all of them. Third example: years ago, our team was the first time our auditor had ever seen LetsEncrypt and k8s certificate-manager (then it was called kube-lego). He wanted an attestation that TLS certificates were current and not near-expiration. We countered: they can't be near-expiration, because we have automated systems which renew them. He'd never seen anything like it; he was used to expensive certificates and operations runbooks for renewal; and we nerded out for ten minutes showing it all off. Instead of documenting a runbook for renewing certificates, he documented our runbook for maintaining this automated service and ensuring uptime. Win-win. Its a slow process, and its made even slower because there are tons of people in the industry who treat the frameworks as gospel. But, ultimately; we control the technology, not them. We decide what is secure; they just attest to it and double-check.

sparc24 4y ago