7 ms·

I don't understand this answer. Let's say you are using Microsoft as your identity provider (can this be done? never seen it) and Outlook as your recovery emai

by the_af 4y ago

I don't understand this answer. Let's say you are using Microsoft as your identity provider (can this be done? never seen it) and Outlook as your recovery email. How does this help in this scenario: - You lost your phone and laptop. - You lost your 2FA device. - You lost your recovery codes. - You lost any way of demonstrating you are who you say you are. How is Microsoft Outlook going to help you? Are you going to call a Microsoft support person over somebody else's phone and tell them to please help you? I don't think the problem is Google in this scenario (I've no love of them, mind you). Asking people to stop using Google and Gmail strikes me as unrealistic as asking them to stop using Facebook.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
I am talking spesifically about email - with namecheap you can literally show them your ID document, they have your phone number on file and they can call you. They have to help you access the service you paid for, otherwise you have grounds for a lawsuit. I have not tried this with microsoft, but ai imagine it should be similar. There is nothing special about Gmail, why do you have to use it? I had this warning 14 years ago when a friend's gmail was stolen and their support (back when they had it) refused to lift a finger despite him selding a scan of his ID, etc. I am never using free service for something vital again.
- the_af 4y ago
  > There is nothing special about Gmail, why do you have to use it? I'm terrified of Google's support, but: - It's free. - I've been using Gmail for over a decade. Why would I switch? I've tons of data in there, and most people I care about know this is my email. > they have your phone number on file and they can call you Do you mean the phone I just lost in the fire? (in this scenario)
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > would I switch? I've tons of data in there, and most people I care about know this is my email. Surely fact that you have a lot of data is precisely the reason you need to safeguard it? Copying all old emails to a new account takes a few clicks in outlook/thunderbird/whatever you prefer Setting up forwarding takes a couple minutes. This isn't like leaving WhatsApp where you are stuck > Do you mean the phone I just lost in the fire? I can walk into a physical store of my phone company and have a new simcard in minutes
    - the_af 4y ago
      > I can walk into a physical store of my phone company and have a new simcard in minutes This doesn't work in all countries. > Setting up forwarding takes a couple minutes. This isn't like leaving WhatsApp where you are stuck I find this unsatisfying. In this day an age, your email is often your id. I don't feel comfortable with my id being one thing to some people, and another to others, without rhyme or reason. I'm also not comfortable with having forward configured in an (allegedly) unsafe account I may lose access to.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    If Google locked your email tomorrow, what would you do? This can and does happen.
    - the_af 4y ago
      I don't know, and it terrifies me. I don't have a good answer to this. This is why TFA resonates with me. I think we need some sort of unified online identity that is relatively easy to recover in case of accidents but very hard for hackers to crack/steal, and also that this identity cannot depend on the whims of Google, Facebook, Microsoft or any corporate provider with arbitrary and opaque appeals procedures. I don't know what a truly achievable and satisfying answer would be like. I've lost some sleep over this :( And don't get me started on backups of irreplaceable digital things like photos of your loved ones. I've really lost sleep over this. I do have some backups, but it's a chore and none are foolproof.
      - vorpalhex 4y ago
        I'll share my solution. I have "recovery capsules". Some are electronic (high quality usb drive) and some are dead tree on waterproof paper. These get me back into my password manager and require things I know to decrypt. USB drive contains needed decryption software for lots of platforms. This bootstrap data almost never changes. Emails, clouds, photos, etc get backed up automatically onto a homelab which stores data on ZFS. I manually do a backup (semi-automated, plugging in the drive to the dock is manual still). I had a buddy I exchanged backups with but lost that situation, so I need to find a new one or two, but that gives me offsite backup. Admittedly this isn't perfect - if my local city melts then I am screwed but also I probably have bigger problems then anyways.
        the_af 4y ago
        > Admittedly this isn't perfect - if my local city melts then I am screwed I wouldn't worry about this too much. Also if there is a nuclear war, I assume we will all have more pressing matters to worry about. But for more common scenarios: the problem is that it feels like too much work. Convenience wins the day, even if I'm at the mercy of Google and their support is terrible and people frequently get locked out on a whim, and Google doesn't care. I know, I'm digging my own grave here :/ PS: I do keep my encrypted passwords database in a pendrive, and I do print recovery codes for Gmail. I suppose everything else can be recovered from those two (if Gmail doesn't lock me out on a whim). But in case of a fire that burns everything down, I'm lost. This doesn't address my photos either; I think some are backed up in... Google Photo? [facepalm]
vorpalhex 4y ago
Oh, when you call support they will go through a verification process. Worst case you send them a copy of your (new) drivers license/photo ID. As long as the person on the other end is a human, this isn't a problem but if you are facing Google which has no support, you are screwed. > as unrealistic as asking them to stop using Facebook. I don't use Facebook. Not an issue. Several family members also don't use it. I keep in touch with people by calling them by phone every few weeks.
- the_af 4y ago
  > if you are facing Google which has no support, you are screwed I agree Google has enough horror stories that make me dread the day disaster decides to strike. I do have the suspicion their support is not entirely automated though. There are online groups of "volunteers" where, if you post asking for help and provide some evidence, your request will be magically expedited. This makes me think Google's official stance is "no human support", but really there is some unofficial support. Still terrible, but something to consider. > I don't use Facebook That's why I said what's unrealistic is asking people to stop using Facebook. For people who already use it. As an aside, having people call me on the phone every two weeks just to see how I'm doing sounds like an annoyance to me.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    > That's why I said what's unrealistic is asking people to stop using Facebook I used Facebook since it was restricted and used it genuinely for many years. I stopped. Likewise for many of my family - they are ex-Facebook users. > having people call me on the phone every two weeks just to see how I'm doing sounds like an annoyance to me. To each their own but if you are using a platform that is in theory meant to connect you with other people.. then it sounds like you want social connection. Facebook is fake. Phone calls can be fake or awkward or other things too but the default tends to be pretty good with a bit of practice. Having someone care about you enough to take the time to call you on a semi-regular basis is a feature, not a bug.
    - the_af 4y ago
jackson1442 4y ago
The biggest benefit of a paid email provider is you have a paid stake in it. If you're locked out, you're still paying for the service so they have an interest in restoring your access so you continue paying. A lot of places will let you back in if you can provide some transaction metadata like last charge date, billing address, last4 of card, etc.
- the_af 4y ago
  > A lot of places will let you back in if you can provide some transaction metadata like last charge date, billing address, last4 of card, etc. Can't this be social engineered by a hacker?

by the_af 4y ago

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

I am talking spesifically about email - with namecheap you can literally show them your ID document, they have your phone number on file and they can call you. They have to help you access the service you paid for, otherwise you have grounds for a lawsuit. I have not tried this with microsoft, but ai imagine it should be similar. There is nothing special about Gmail, why do you have to use it? I had this warning 14 years ago when a friend's gmail was stolen and their support (back when they had it) refused to lift a finger despite him selding a scan of his ID, etc. I am never using free service for something vital again.

the_af 4y ago
> There is nothing special about Gmail, why do you have to use it? I'm terrified of Google's support, but: - It's free. - I've been using Gmail for over a decade. Why would I switch? I've tons of data in there, and most people I care about know this is my email. > they have your phone number on file and they can call you Do you mean the phone I just lost in the fire? (in this scenario)
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > would I switch? I've tons of data in there, and most people I care about know this is my email. Surely fact that you have a lot of data is precisely the reason you need to safeguard it? Copying all old emails to a new account takes a few clicks in outlook/thunderbird/whatever you prefer Setting up forwarding takes a couple minutes. This isn't like leaving WhatsApp where you are stuck > Do you mean the phone I just lost in the fire? I can walk into a physical store of my phone company and have a new simcard in minutes
  - the_af 4y ago
    > I can walk into a physical store of my phone company and have a new simcard in minutes This doesn't work in all countries. > Setting up forwarding takes a couple minutes. This isn't like leaving WhatsApp where you are stuck I find this unsatisfying. In this day an age, your email is often your id. I don't feel comfortable with my id being one thing to some people, and another to others, without rhyme or reason. I'm also not comfortable with having forward configured in an (allegedly) unsafe account I may lose access to.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  If Google locked your email tomorrow, what would you do? This can and does happen.
  - the_af 4y ago
    I don't know, and it terrifies me. I don't have a good answer to this. This is why TFA resonates with me. I think we need some sort of unified online identity that is relatively easy to recover in case of accidents but very hard for hackers to crack/steal, and also that this identity cannot depend on the whims of Google, Facebook, Microsoft or any corporate provider with arbitrary and opaque appeals procedures. I don't know what a truly achievable and satisfying answer would be like. I've lost some sleep over this :( And don't get me started on backups of irreplaceable digital things like photos of your loved ones. I've really lost sleep over this. I do have some backups, but it's a chore and none are foolproof.
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      I'll share my solution. I have "recovery capsules". Some are electronic (high quality usb drive) and some are dead tree on waterproof paper. These get me back into my password manager and require things I know to decrypt. USB drive contains needed decryption software for lots of platforms. This bootstrap data almost never changes. Emails, clouds, photos, etc get backed up automatically onto a homelab which stores data on ZFS. I manually do a backup (semi-automated, plugging in the drive to the dock is manual still). I had a buddy I exchanged backups with but lost that situation, so I need to find a new one or two, but that gives me offsite backup. Admittedly this isn't perfect - if my local city melts then I am screwed but also I probably have bigger problems then anyways.
      - the_af 4y ago
        > Admittedly this isn't perfect - if my local city melts then I am screwed I wouldn't worry about this too much. Also if there is a nuclear war, I assume we will all have more pressing matters to worry about. But for more common scenarios: the problem is that it feels like too much work. Convenience wins the day, even if I'm at the mercy of Google and their support is terrible and people frequently get locked out on a whim, and Google doesn't care. I know, I'm digging my own grave here :/ PS: I do keep my encrypted passwords database in a pendrive, and I do print recovery codes for Gmail. I suppose everything else can be recovered from those two (if Gmail doesn't lock me out on a whim). But in case of a fire that burns everything down, I'm lost. This doesn't address my photos either; I think some are backed up in... Google Photo? [facepalm]

vorpalhex 4y ago

Oh, when you call support they will go through a verification process. Worst case you send them a copy of your (new) drivers license/photo ID. As long as the person on the other end is a human, this isn't a problem but if you are facing Google which has no support, you are screwed. > as unrealistic as asking them to stop using Facebook. I don't use Facebook. Not an issue. Several family members also don't use it. I keep in touch with people by calling them by phone every few weeks.

the_af 4y ago
> if you are facing Google which has no support, you are screwed I agree Google has enough horror stories that make me dread the day disaster decides to strike. I do have the suspicion their support is not entirely automated though. There are online groups of "volunteers" where, if you post asking for help and provide some evidence, your request will be magically expedited. This makes me think Google's official stance is "no human support", but really there is some unofficial support. Still terrible, but something to consider. > I don't use Facebook That's why I said what's unrealistic is asking people to stop using Facebook. For people who already use it. As an aside, having people call me on the phone every two weeks just to see how I'm doing sounds like an annoyance to me.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  > That's why I said what's unrealistic is asking people to stop using Facebook I used Facebook since it was restricted and used it genuinely for many years. I stopped. Likewise for many of my family - they are ex-Facebook users. > having people call me on the phone every two weeks just to see how I'm doing sounds like an annoyance to me. To each their own but if you are using a platform that is in theory meant to connect you with other people.. then it sounds like you want social connection. Facebook is fake. Phone calls can be fake or awkward or other things too but the default tends to be pretty good with a bit of practice. Having someone care about you enough to take the time to call you on a semi-regular basis is a feature, not a bug.
  - the_af 4y ago

jackson1442 4y ago

The biggest benefit of a paid email provider is you have a paid stake in it. If you're locked out, you're still paying for the service so they have an interest in restoring your access so you continue paying. A lot of places will let you back in if you can provide some transaction metadata like last charge date, billing address, last4 of card, etc.

the_af 4y ago
> A lot of places will let you back in if you can provide some transaction metadata like last charge date, billing address, last4 of card, etc. Can't this be social engineered by a hacker?