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Sounds to me like someone does not trust employees to manage themselves and meet deadlines, and thats ok. I was coming into this thread from a highly skilled, w

by dnndev 4y ago

Sounds to me like someone does not trust employees to manage themselves and meet deadlines, and thats ok. I was coming into this thread from a highly skilled, well paid workers perspective. Completely agree, if you need to micro-manage then workday oriented results are easier.

eweise 4y ago
Well, if you ever get the chance to work with highly skilled, well paid workers I think you'll be surprised to find that even we have a hard time estimating the effort needed to complete tasks since we are usually doing unique and complex things that have unknowns. I also suggest studying agile methodologies which assume workers are working at 100% and instead of guaranteeing work gets completed according to estimates it tracks work completed and adjusts accordingly.
- dnndev 4y ago
  estimate and result oriented work are two different things. Result oriented work is: Here is how much I did this week. I either met, exceeded or fell short of some expectation. The person then decides if this is the place they want to be and the employer decides if they are a good fit. Agile in most places is a managers whip. I will go so far to say I have never seen it implemented in a way that is beneficial to devs. (possibly by design) Estimates are even worse... you cant estimate software at scale. spending dollars to pickup dimes as the saying goes.
  - eweise 4y ago
    The problem I see is that without defined boundaries, employees tend to overwork instead of underwork. I see managers praising engineers that work nights or weekends and Managers not encouraging their reports to take enough vacation under 'unlimited vacation' policies. Mgmt is still going to rate you based on your performance but at least having a time off policy prevents a complete race to bottom in the name of productivity.
al_borland 4y ago
Who is setting the deadlines? The ones that have been flying around my office lately completely ignore the engineers and architects. They are completely unrealistic and would have people working around the clock in a panic 7 days per week to try and meet them, and still slip. No thanks. They don’t need to micromanage, but they are choosing to, and doing it very poorly (as if there is a good way).

by dnndev 4y ago

eweise 4y ago

Well, if you ever get the chance to work with highly skilled, well paid workers I think you'll be surprised to find that even we have a hard time estimating the effort needed to complete tasks since we are usually doing unique and complex things that have unknowns. I also suggest studying agile methodologies which assume workers are working at 100% and instead of guaranteeing work gets completed according to estimates it tracks work completed and adjusts accordingly.

dnndev 4y ago
estimate and result oriented work are two different things. Result oriented work is: Here is how much I did this week. I either met, exceeded or fell short of some expectation. The person then decides if this is the place they want to be and the employer decides if they are a good fit. Agile in most places is a managers whip. I will go so far to say I have never seen it implemented in a way that is beneficial to devs. (possibly by design) Estimates are even worse... you cant estimate software at scale. spending dollars to pickup dimes as the saying goes.
- eweise 4y ago
  The problem I see is that without defined boundaries, employees tend to overwork instead of underwork. I see managers praising engineers that work nights or weekends and Managers not encouraging their reports to take enough vacation under 'unlimited vacation' policies. Mgmt is still going to rate you based on your performance but at least having a time off policy prevents a complete race to bottom in the name of productivity.

al_borland 4y ago

Who is setting the deadlines? The ones that have been flying around my office lately completely ignore the engineers and architects. They are completely unrealistic and would have people working around the clock in a panic 7 days per week to try and meet them, and still slip. No thanks. They don’t need to micromanage, but they are choosing to, and doing it very poorly (as if there is a good way).